Tag Archives: tyvek

Help – My Hobby Shop Has Wall Condensation

Help – My Hobby Shop Has Wall Condensation

Reader EVAN in PHILADELPHIA writes:

“Hi there, I recently constructed a small 20x20x10 pole barn for use as a hobby shop (woodworking, etc.). The eaves have vented soffit and the roof has a ridge vent. On the interior I did a metal ceiling with blown in R-C38 Cellulose. The attic space seems to be ventilating very well and I have no concerns. However, for the walls, I am having some moisture issues and am curious what the best plan of attack might be. The building is wrapped in Tyvek, I then constructed horizontal studs that line up with the exterior purlins and filled the gap with R19 faced Batts. I taped all the seams and tried to seal it the best I could. I then covered the walls with wood panels. However, after some activity that created some moisture in the air of the shop, I decided to check the walls and found the back of the Tyvek and fiberglass insulation soaking wet in a couple spots. Now, granted, the spots I had access to were less than ceiled (Around a pipe) that would be a likely spot for the warm moist air in the shop to get to the cold Tyvek, But I am afraid it’s likely an all-over problem. I know this is probably one of the most common questions you receive but I’m curious what you would recommend? Should I pull the wood panels off and add a vinyl vapor barrier. Would it be okay to put a vinyl vapor barrier over top of the faced fiberglass? Is there any negative to adding a vapor barrier? For example, would the reverse happen in the summertime if the shop is air conditioned? Any thoughts would be appreciated, I wish the company that sold me the barn would’ve discussed all this beforehand! But, we will move ahead. Attached are pictures showing the wall construction.”

This one really is not your provider’s fault.

Your faced insulation is already a vapor retarder. Adding another vinyl vapor barrier over interior of it is unlikely to change your outcome (although it shouldn’t negatively impact anything – other than being a lot of work).

If you do not have a vapor barrier under your slab, seal top of slab.

You have a very small area, so it takes only a very small amount of excess moisture to create challenges. Invest in a good portable dehumidifier (we bought one for our house at Walmart) and run it any time relative humidity inside your shop is over 40%.

This should take care of your challenge.

Insulation and Vapor Barrier, Rich-e Board Insulation, and a Tear-Off

Today’s “ask the Guru” answers reader questions about best applications of insulation and vapor barriers, the Guru’s experience with Rich-e Board insulation, and how to avoid a “tear-off” of a roof by adding layer of framing and insulation on top of old roof.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, I am building a pole building in northern Indiana, I am looking for advice on insulation/vapor barrier locations. I have installed Tyvek on the outside before steel, will be putting wall girts and steel on interior as well. Plan is to install plastic on the inside before interior steel then blow in fiberglass insulation down in walls from top and do attic as well. I am just thinking since houses are built the same way with breathable Tyvek on the outside and the vapor barrier on the inside. Is the right way? Looking to keep the building from sweating on the inside. Thanks MICHAEL in KENDALLVILLE

DEAR MICHAEL: Internal sweating is a function of many more things than how you detail your wall insulation (you are correct in having Tyvek on exterior, vapor barrier on interior). As your building shell gets tighter, moisture is going to be trapped inside and you may need to mechanically dehumidify in order to prevent condensation. Some considerations – have a well-sealed vapor barrier under your slab, grade outside of building at no less than a 5% slope for at least 10 feet. Properly vent eaves and ridge, in correct proportions. You may want to consider your choice of blowing fiberglass into your walls, as it will settle over time, leaving a cold spot at top of wall. It is also affected by moisture. I would recommend using Rockwool batts instead.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What’s your experience with Rich-e board insulation? TERRY in NORTHPORT

DEAR TERRY: I wrote an article about Rich-e board not long after product was first announced  (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/11/one-inch-insulation-r-50/). I reached out to them when I was looking at doing a tear off reroof of my then home at Newman Lake, Washington. I was unable to ever even be able to obtain a quote from them. As best I can tell, it appears this business has permanently closed.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I’ve got a pole building/residence I was wanting to avoid a tear off, was thinking of using roof hugger stand offs and wanted to insulate on top of old steel. Thoughts? Could go with 2” blue board I guess. Since you’re up at Newman lake, any thoughts on contractors in NE WA? Thank you. TERRY in NORTHPORT

DEAR TERRY: Hansen Pole Buildings’ warehouse had a 40 plus year old steel roof, it leaked water like a colandar. We also wanted to add overhangs to eaves and endwalls. In order to overlay our old roof (building is 96′ x 96′), we placed 2×8 rafters at each existing truss, fastening through into truss top chords. We then joist hung 2×6 purlins between each rafter. Although we did not insulate (building is cold storage), we could have placed R-30 Rockwool batts between purlins. As long as your underlying old steel roofing is able to withstand any shear loads imposed, then pretty much any well thought out design solution would work. Ideally, you should engage a Registered Professional Engineer to evaluate your current structure and design a best structural solution. Least expensive, provided you can access underside of roof, your least expensive will be a tear off. If you have an attic space, order roof steel with an Integral Condensation Control factory applied. Any contractor who you would consider hiring should be booked out for at least a year, if not longer, and will want a premium unless they just happen to live nearby.

Bugged by Bugs

Bugged By Bugs

Reader FRANK in ARVA, ONTARIO writes:

“I am actually in Ontario. How to keep bugs from getting behind the steel wall siding voids in the area left behind where the ribs are? Interior is finished with vapor barrier/batt insulation/osb. Exterior has steel “barn” siding and Tyvek wrap underneath. Z flash at bottom of exterior wall siding at bottom over pressure treated skirt board. Built mid- 90’s by myself. I left 1/16 ” gap from bottom of wall siding to top of skirt board z flash to allow water drainage and so no intimate contact between the wall and flashing to help avoid rust issues. All steel edges had a layer of prime and paint added during build. 30 years later no rust. Lady bugs and earwigs like to accumulate in these rib hollows. Don’t want to caulk bottom of siding…might trap moisture. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru writes:

In my world it is Asian Beetles getting between wall steel and building wrap. No matter how tightly I have exterior skin sealed, they seem to find a way to migrate in and then expire. I am not sure, as of yet, how to calculate added R-value from their bodies.

Unless your build has some serious issues with poor flashing around openings, you should not have water accumulations between steel siding and your Tyvek. You can check for this by looking for signs of water on your Z flashing at base of wall. Most often, best way to “bug seal” your siding would have been to place inside closures (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/12/the-lowly-inside-closure/) at top and bottom of each sheet of walls steel, as well as above and below openings. While this is easy to accomplish at time of construction, it would prove to be a task from where you are now. Chances are these little critters are not going to adversely affect anything, so after 30 years, you may just need to accept they are going to find a home there.

Roof Truss Costs, Moisture Barriers, and Integrated Condensation Control

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru addresses reader questions about “the most cost effective length to procure, transport and install of a Post Frame Roof Truss 4/12 Pitch; 36′, 40′ or 50′?” a suitable moisture barrier for a shed, and Integrated condensation controls.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Typically, what is the most cost effective length to procure, transport and install of a Post Frame Roof Truss 4/12 Pitch; 36′, 40′ or 50′? Question is relevant to a mixed-use agriculture building. Thank you for your assistance. LYNNE in EDINBURG

DEAR LYNNE: Transportation can often be a limiting factor. In order to avoid pilot cars and over width permits, maximum truss height is limited to 102″ (8’6″). A 50′ span, 4/12 slope truss will normally be roughly 108″ tall, plus any overhang “tails”. So, this would entail an over width permit. Now most truss companies purchase year-long over width permits for their trucks, so this cost is negligible. Most states do not require pilot cars, unless loads are 12 foot or greater in width. This allows for 60 foot span trusses to be hauled without expensive pilot vehicles. As to procurement, while you will pay more per lineal foot of truss as spans increase, you will also need fewer trusses. For an agricultural building, I always encourage clients to build as large as they can economically justify and have space to build on, as it will never be too big. Keeping your building length to three times building width will also help with your budget, as these ratios are typically within shear load carrying capabilities of properly fastened steel roofing and siding.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a 12′ x18′ unheated shed framed and ready for the metal roof and siding. The roof will anchor to untreated 2″x4″ purlins. Is it ok to use Tyvek or a similar wrap to cover the seams from the top of my purlin ends and hang over the rake rafters that will be covered by the metal siding???? Is this an acceptable secondary water barrier between my roof and wall seam? My shed will most likely have a crushed limestone floor. It will be unheated and “unfinished” on the inside. No windows and 2 barn doors across from each other. Thank you so much. MACK in BATON ROUGE

DEAR MACK: Before placing your limestone floor materials, install a well-sealed vapor barrier (I recommend 15mil in order to minimize potential for punctures). This will help to minimize, or even eliminate condensation challenges. Order your roof steel with an Integral Condensation Control (Condestop, Dripstop or similar) factory applied. Cover walls with Tyvek or similar before installing wall steel.

If purlins cross rake rafters on endwalls, install 2×4 blocking between them to seal any open spaces.

Order steel Rake/Corner trims to cover last rib of roof steel and top of endwall steel (similar to below):

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Building a 50x36x12 pole barn with 4:12 roof pitch. Attic space will be unconditioned with blown in cellulose insulation in ceiling and batten on walls. Attic will be vented with soffit and ridge vent. Walls will have exterior house wrap under metal panels. Question is, what to put under the roof panels? Just a vapor barrier or a dual purpose vapor/radiant barrier? I hear different opinions on placing radiant barrier under roof. STEVEN in SUGAR LAND

DEAR STEVEN: I would order your roof steel with an Integral Condensation Control (Dripstop, Condenstop or similar) factory applied. You can read more about these products here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/09/integral-condensation-control-2/

 

 

Insulating an Existing Pole Barn

Insulating an Existing Pole Barn When Things Started Wrong

Reader TOM writes:

“Mike,  I have an existing pole barn (6×6 post with 2’ on center girts ) that has a 4” concrete floor with 10 mil plastic under it. The side walls have 1” XPS insulation on the outside of girt then steel siding with no wrap or barrier. My thought is put Tyvek on inside of girt ( facing same direction as if on outside application ) then put inch and a half XPS DOW insulation against that ( because there’s two bunks already there) then 2×4 frame with batten insulation between them, then 6mil or heavier vapor barrier then OSB. The floor has PEX tubing in it but not hooked up. Is this a proper install?  Also I will have to have an engineer check the BCDL as I want to put OSB on the ceiling but would like to know how to insulate the ceiling. There is a one foot fully vented overhang with a ridge vent also. Thank You for the info in advance. 

Mike the Pole Barn Guru advises:

I am concerned about your building having an inch of XPS insulation between girts and siding. This allows screw shanks to flex, potentially creating slotting under screw heads and excessive deformation can result in your building cladding’s shear strength being compromised and (under extreme circumstances) racking enough to create a failure. I would feel much more comfortable if you were to add 7/16″ OSB or 1/2″ CDX plywood to the inside of girts in bays on each side of corner columns from splash plank to eave girt.

Moving forward….

Your external XPS is now acting as a vapor barrier (or close to it). Any exposed to inside seams should be taped. Do not put Tyvek on the inside of the girts, as this would allow any moisture in assembly to be trapped between it and XPS. Unless you already own a pile of 1-1/2″ Dow insulation, skip it and instead fill the balance of the wall cavity with rock wool or stone wool unfaced batts. Do not place a vapor barrier on the inside or seal OSB on the inside of the wall. Walls will now ‘dry’ to inside.

Provided your trusses are capable of supporting a ceiling, blow in fiberglass above your ceiling finish of choice. Make sure to allow at least an inch of air space above insulation at eaves so you get proper air intake from vented soffits. Unless you are very close to Canada and have at least 8000 heating degree days, do not add a vapor barrier at ceiling level.

ZIP Sheathing

ZIP Sheathing and Other Post Frame Thoughts

Reader SPENCER in WINLOCK writes:

“Hello, I’m in the planning phase and your roof purlin style and watching the “Hart and Home” youtube series have just about convinced me to go with Hansen buildings. I have a few general questions. 1. I have a tight driveway with a gate. What kind of a truck would 40′ trusses be delivered on? 2. I’d like to use zip panels on my walls and roof for sheathing below the metal. Is this something that can be added to the engineering package and supplied by me? I’m assuming the weight of the panels would need to be accounted for in the roof loading. 3. Are 20′ side walls a possibility with your buildings? 4. I’d like to use poured columns and wet set brackets for my footings. Is this something that can be added to the engineering package and supplied by me? My goal would be to have these installed well before taking delivery of the building. 5. I’d like to do a lean-to but need to keep as much roof height as possible for a 14′ door. Do these have to be designed with trusses or can I specify dimensional lumber? Thank you!”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

For those following along at home – Hart and Homes YouTube series can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjzEsuHQ8UFZEbXQc16RT9Q

Hansen Pole Buildings has provided more fully engineered post frame buildings to our clients in Washington State (roughly a 1000 at last count), than any other state. Mr. and Mrs. Hart are a great couple and have been a pleasure to work with. This roof purlin style (purlins on edge) is fairly typical in Western U.S. post frame buildings, however, recessing them between trusses with joist hangers is not. Our feeling is this engineered connection is far superior to attaching purlins to a very small block full of nails (extended reading on paddle blocks can be found here https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/05/paddle-blocks/).

In answer to your questions:

1) Regardless of supplier, both roof trusses and steel roofing/siding are typically delivered by semi-trucks pulling 48′ trailers. You may want to make provision to have a utility trailer handy for at least a steel package to be off loaded onto, should you feel your entrance is just too tight for this sort of truck/trailer combination.

2) Zip System sheathing was introduced by Huber Engineered Woods in 2008 and it has been widely adopted in many U.S. states. Huber manufactures premium OSB products such as Advantech sheathing. Many builders prefer Advantech over plywood, due in part to quality problems they were seeing in plywood.

Zip System sheathing’s chief virtue is it marries a water-resistant barrier (WRB) to sheathing, eliminating the step of adding a separate WRB. Many builders like the Zip system a lot because it eliminates what has always been a troublesome step in building processes. This is, carefully installing large plastic sheets around an entire building, carefully lapping it at seams, and more carefully cutting and taping around doors and windows so it directs any water to the exterior.

While Tyvek (first popular building wrap), was originally marketed as an energy-saving material, it was soon disproven that a building with Tyvek, installed typically, wasn’t much tighter than a conventional building with asphalt felt.

A building built with Zip sheathing, however, taped and sealed as recommended, produces very tight results without a lot of fussing. This is especially true in relatively simple building plans without a lot of bumps, angles, and complex shapes.

Main Zip Sheathing downside is a heavy reliance on flashing tape. Huber makes high-quality tape in various widths and also makes a stretch version for window pan flashing and other tricky details. Still, water, frost, or dirt can undermine a watertight seal, as can sloppy installation.

Liquid-applied sealants offer an alternative to tape and is gaining in popularity. One example is Huber’s Liquid Flash, a thick liquid flashing applied with a caulking gun and spread with a trowel. Liquid flashing provides a nearly foolproof solution for waterproofing window pans, foundation joints, and other tricky or vulnerable transitions.

Like any product or system Zip sheathing has pros and cons. Some are actual and proven, some more theoretical. This product has not really been around long enough to stand time’s test. But, there are few in field failure reports and most contractors who have tried this system are happy with it overall.

Here are main arguments, pro and con:

Pros

  • Installs sheathing and water-resistant barrier in one step. Saves labor.
  • Makes it relatively easy to create a very tight shell.
  • This is a complete system with high quality tapes and liquid sealant, as well as published details backed by a reputable company.
  • Backed by a 30 year warranty, but not transferable, and subject to usual conditions about proper installation.
  • Window installation and flashing is easier than with building wrap (but relies on tape at window head flashing). Eliminates Origami style building wrap folding.
  • Quick dry-in for contractor with less concern about wind and water.

Cons

  • Tape must be installed carefully without dirt, frost, or moisture to seal well.
  • Horizontal seams are vulnerable to water penetration if tape fails. This is especially a concern at door and window tops.
  • Less permeable to moisture than most building wraps, so in theory the wall may not dry out as easily.
  • Not a true drainage plane, as can be created with draining building wraps. Vertical spacers or a second building wrap layer would be needed for a true drainage plane.
  • If nails are overdriven, especially “shiners” missing framing, OSB is exposed and needs sealing with tape or sealant.
  • More expensive materials (but savings on labor).
  • On a roof, especially, I would be reluctant to trust tape to prevent leaks, so would want another roofing felt or synthetic underlayment layer.
  • I would not want to screw roof steel to any OSB product.

Many builders like Zip system’s simplicity. To a large extent, its long-term performance depends on taped seam durability. If applied to a clean surface with a roller, as recommended, all indications are it will provide a long service life. This is a high-performance tape. Still,  it is partly a matter of faith it will remain water tight for decades.

Alternatively, building wrap does not last forever either. It tends to get brittle and deteriorate over time. It can deteriorate rapidly if it stays wet due to trapped water — for example, if a building wrap section gets bunched up behind a trim piece as I have seen around windows, corner boards and other exterior trim.

With any waterproofing product, workmanship quality is at least as important as material. A building built well with steel siding over plastic building wrap can perform as well as one with Zip sheathing. It just a careful detailing matter — especially  around doors, windows, and other joints prone to leakage.

With all of this said, yes, you could provide your own Zip sheathing and we can incorporate it in your engineer sealed plans.

3) We can provide eave sidewalls to 40 feet tall and three stories (50 feet and four stories with fire suppression sprinklers).

4) We engineer many of our buildings using poured piers and wet-set brackets. We typically provide brackets as ours have an ICC ESR Code approval and we ship them out to you far in advance of your building shell materials.

5) Our default for attached lean-to roofs would be rafters as opposed to mono-pitch trusses.

Things You Want to See On a Building Proposal

Things You Want to See on a Building Proposal/Contract

Maybe you (as a soon to be building owner, building contractor or provider) are satisfied with being overly vague when it comes to what you are buying or selling. From a contractor/provider standpoint, this gives you lots of leeway to add ‘extra dealer margin’ by providing minimal (or less than minimal) components to unsuspecting buyers.

Now, my employer happens to offer a “price match guarantee” for any comparable building package. If I had a dollar for every quote from a competitor where it was impossible to even determine what was being proposed to be provided, I would be sitting in a beach chair along an ocean, not writing this article!

Today I am going to address a few highlights, if you are pondering a building investment, you will want to pay close attention…provided getting best investment for your money is important.

Things like building dimensions (width, length, eave height and roof slope) as well as roof style (gable, single slope, monitor, gambrel, dual slope, etc.) might seem to be no brainers, however I find even some of these certainly important features to be overlooked!

While there does exist an actual ANSI (American National Standards Institute) definition of Eave Height – most builders and vendors are unawares or just plain choose not to use it. Somewhere your agreement should spell out what is proposed or provided so all have a clear understanding. (Please read more here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/03/eave_height/)

Will this building be fully enclosed, partially enclosed or merely a roof? It makes a difference in wind design, so should be clearly delineated.

FEATURES

This is not meant to be a comprehensive list, but is to provide an idea as to how extensive it should be.

Thickness (gauge) of steel roofing and siding, as well as warranty AND substrate should be called out. Caution here as IRC (International Residential Code) Table R905.10.3(2) requires a minimum of AZ 50 for 55% aluminum-zinc-alloy-coated steel (Galvalume) or G-90 for Galvanized steel. These same requirements can be found in IBC (International Building Code) Table 1507.4.3(2). Lesser coatings can only be used for “U” buildings. Will there be wainscot, and if so will there be trim between it and upper wall panels?

How will roof steel condensation be controlled? Not addressing this now will cause challenges later. Integrated Condensation Control (Dripstop or Condenstop), Reflective Radiant Barrier (aka Bubble – and it is NOT insulation), Metal Building Insulation (vinyl faced fiberglass), Sheathing (OSB or plywood) with 30# or heavier felt or a synthetic ice and water shield? Tyvek or other similar housewraps (Weather Resistant Barriers) are not effective for condensation control.

How will any dead attic spaces be ventilated? Soffits, gable, ridge?

If other materials are to be used for roofing and/or siding, specifics as to thickness, quality and warranty should be clearly delineated.

Overhangs – open (no soffit) or enclosed (with soffit). Length of overhangs. Soffit material to be used (vinyl, steel, aluminum) as well as vented or non-vented.

Any overhead sectional or roll-up (coil) doors should be appropriately wind rated. Residential or commercial doors? Smooth faced, long panel or short panel? And glass, and if so, inserts? Specifics as to any manufacturer’s stated R values, thickness of steel, interior backers, track options (standard, low headroom, high lift or with run of roof), color, finish painted or primed only, vinyl weather seals, steel trims on jambs,  openers and operators should be called out.

Entry door width and heights, is door wood, steel, aluminum, vinyl covered, fiberglass? Jambs wood, steel, aluminum, vinyl covered wood? Doors and jambs finish painted or primed only? Crossbucks? Raised Panel? Glass? Wind rated? R value? Keyed lockset, dead bolts?

Windows with dimensions, type of frame material (aluminum, vinyl, composite, etc.), type (sliding, single hung, double hung, fixed, casement, etc.). Glazing (single, double or triple pane, tempered or non-tempered glass). Color of frame. Integrated J channels? Screens? Gas filled? U-factor and SHGC.

Wall framing (girts) external or bookshelf? External girts rarely meet Code deflection requirements and framing will have to be added to create an insulation cavity or apply interior finishes.

Trusses designed to support a ceiling load? If for sheetrock, a 10 psf (pounds per square foot) bottom chord dead load is required.

Future Building Owners – if it is not specifically called out for, do not assume you are getting it. Building providers and contractors – if you are providing a feature and do not call it out, you are doing a poor job of selling yourself.

Our next article will delve into “Code” design requirements – don’t miss out!

Adding Heated Space in a Pole Barn

Adding Heated Space in a Pole Barn

Reader THOM in COLRAIN writes:

“ I’m creating a 20′ X 30′ heated shop space in the center of a 40′ X 70′ pole barn.  One 20′ side is on an outside wall.  The other three have 2 X 4 studs.  I’m using rough-cut 1″ for the walls of the heated space.  The cold side of the stud wall does not need to have any sheathing, though it can, if necessary.

Where should the reflectix go?  I’m comfortable with it being on the hot side of the 1″ boards.  Does the heated shop count as the air gap, or should it go under the sheathing.  I look forward to your response, and Happy New Year!”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru says:

Happy New Year to you as well!

I noticed your umass.edu email address, our youngest son is working on his doctorate in exercise and muscle physiology at UMass Amherst.

Reflectix® is a reflective Radiant Barrier (RRB) and not an insulation (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/04/reflective-insulation-wars/).

Many considerations need to be made when conditioning a space.

Unless you are going to have HVAC provisions to dry the inside of your heated shop space, you want to dry your space to the exterior . As such, you should have a WRB (like Tyvek) on your shop exterior, then either unfaced batts with 6mil poly on inside, or kraft faced batts. Your ceiling insulation should be unfaced without a vapor barrier. You will probably want to have some sort of exterior sheathing or other barrier to keep rodents from nesting in your insulation. In answer to where Reflectix should go – probably not on this space you are creating.

There is yet another consideration to be made. Most cold storage post frame (pole barn) buildings with concrete slabs on grade do not have vapor barriers underneath. You can determine if yours does or does not have one by placing a wrench on your floor overnight. Next morning, when you remove this wrench, if a dark space appears on your floor where your wrench was, you do not have a vapor barrier underneath. If this is your case, a sealant should be applied on your slab to minimize moisture entering your conditioned space.

Tyvek, Truss Attachments, and Polycarbonate Panels

Continuing to play catch-up with the Pole Barn Guru reader questions, Mike answers questions about adding Tyvek under wall steel, attaching trusses to header on sealed plans, and the use of polycarbonate panels for use on post frame building.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: About to start the build of a 36 x 50 pole barn. Should I add a Tyvek or a “Block-IT” type material under the metal on the walls? I don’t know if I will ever finish the inside (maybe?) but where we live we get a ton of dust from farm fields etc. in the spring and winter before crops, and I am thinking that some type of material might help with drafts and dust. Seems quick and cheap to add now. Seems like everyone is squarely divided on yes/no. Thank you. MIKE in FREELAND

DEAR MIKE: Only reason to not have a Weather Resistant Barrier between your wall steel and framing would be if you were going to use closed cell spray foam insulation (in which case it should be applied directly to wall steel inside). It is so much easier to install now, than to wish you had done so after your building is completed.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My pole barn plans (architect designed & engineer stamped) show a double 2×12 header bolted into the notched top of the pole frame. Can the trusses sit directly on the top of the headers or should I put a typical double top plate on top of the headers (not shown on the plans). DAVE in PEYTON

Engineer sealed pole barnDEAR DAVE: You should erect your building exactly as shown on your engineer sealed plans, otherwise you have relieved your Engineer of Record of any responsibility for structural adequacy. Should you feel adding a top plate or plates to be necessary, please reach out to your engineer for clarification and a possible addendum to your plans.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Are some kind of translucent panels an option for pole barn roofing or siding? Similar to UPS Truck roof. Natural lighting. THOMAS in CHICAGO

post frame garageDEAR THOMAS: Polycarbonate panels may be used to provide natural lighting inside of non-insulated post frame buildings. In my opinion (as well as those of others) translucent panels should not be used in roof plane for a variety of reasons (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/01/one-more-reason-to-not-use-skylights-in-steel-roofs/). They can be successfully used at top of one or both eave sidewalls or on triangles supported by end trusses.

Photos: https://hansenpolebuildings.com/uploads/polebarnquestions/cde6e9e0628de407178fc59261af7f68.jpeg

 

Steel Roofing and Siding Over Purlins

There is just plain a lot of bad (and scary) information floating around out there on the internet. For whatever reason, people will believe a random unqualified answer from a stranger, rather than going to a highly educated expert (e.g. Registered Professional Engineer).

Reader DYLAN in BEDFORD writes:

“I am building a 50×60 using 2×6 stud frame walls. Trusses 4’OC. The garage area (30×60) will have around 12’ceiling. The living area (20×60) will go back and stick build ceiling rafters 2’OC to make 8’ceilings. 12’ ceiling on the living area is just more to heat and cool – not necessary. My builder right now plans on putting 2×4 purlins and 2×4 girts on roof and side walls. Then wrap the whole thing with tyvek and out metal on. 

My question starts with is this ok? 

Should I consider plywood/osb on the roof or walls in lieu of 2×4 purlins/girts?

Are 4’oc trusses ok if I am going back to the living area and building ceilings 2’oc?

Are 2’oc rafters ok assuming I finish the ceiling with 5/8” drywall or wood tongue groove or similar?

I will probably spray foam insulation in the living area. This should help with noise during rain on the metal roof.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

My recommendation would have been for you to erect a fully engineered post frame building, rather than spending tens of thousands of extra dollars in an attempt to make a stick framed house look like a pole building.

Ultimately how your building is assembled structurally should be up to whatever engineer you (or your builder) hire to provide your home’s engineered plans. Building Codes do not allow for stick framed walls taller than 11’7″ without engineering, so you should be there already.

Steel panels should not ever be screwed into OSB only and even plywood only would only be on roofs if you are using a standing seam (concealed fastener) steel. I (and most likely your engineer) will specify 2×4 or even 2×6 girts and/or purlins in order to provide a proper surface to screw steel panels to. Your trusses every four feet may be adequate in your living area, it will depend upon how your engineer designs structural attachment of your furred down ceiling, as well as weight supported by it. Rafters 24 inches on center will provide sufficient support for 5/8″ drywall.

You should not place Tyvek between roof framing and roof steel – as Weather Resistant Barriers (WRB) allow moisture to pass through. This could allow condensation to be trapped between your home’s WRB and roof steel, causing premature deterioration.

Tyvek Weather Barrier, Overhead Door Sizes, and Slab Insulation

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers questions about use of Tyvek weather barrier, best size for overhead garage doors, and insulation for a slab.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hi, I was thinking of putting up a metal clad pole building and insulating it with R28 batt. Wondering your thoughts on adding Tyvek to the outside to help protect against the weather? Not sure if the cost is worth it? Most of the builders around here don’t recommend it. DOUG in REGINA

DEAR DOUG: Your local builders probably do not recommend use of a Weather Resistant Barrier (WRB) in walls because they fear increasing of prices on their quotes – they are selling low price, rather than best value for their clients.

If you are not going to flash and batt (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/01/flash-and-batt-insulating-barndominium-walls/) your walls, then use of a WRB is an excellent choice as it allows any moisture from within your insulation cavity to escape outward. Use unfaced batts and then cover interior of your walls with well-sealed 6mil clear visqueen prior to an interior finish.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I’m fixin to build a barn, 40×40 12’ walls with 3 overhead doors. Going to put a lift in it. Have any suggestions on door size and spacing. I live in all sand so for my post I’m buying sono tubes so it won’t cave in on me. What size sono tubes? Planning on 6” concrete floor with thickened slab where hoist goes. Anything I’m forgetting? ANDREW

DEAR ANDREW: You actually probably need at least a 12′ ceiling for a lift. I always recommend at least 3′ from a wall and 3′ in between (it avoids door dings). With a 40′ wall – this will not quite work out (in my ideal world). I like 10′ wide doors, as they keep mirrors on much better. I also like 8′ tall doors, hardly any more than 7′ and gives room for racks, most lifts, etc.

In summary I would do (2) 10′ x 8′ (1) 10’x10′ (might as well take advantage of the ceiling height. Go 3′ from corners and 2′ in between.

Our third-party engineer will determine depth and diameter of sonotubes and they will be called out on your sealed plans.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hi Mike, I am working on building a post frame home in Eastern Oregon. Looking for ideas on slab insulation detail at perimeter edge. The home will not have radiant floor heat.

I am having trouble deciding on how to insulate the perimeter slab. Oregon requires minimum R-15 for slab edge insulation. Ideally I would prefer to see concrete at exterior perimeter vs treated grade board that’s visible, however the treated grade board seems to be most cost effective in design. TRENT in WALLA WALLA

DEAR TRENT: I had just recently done this for one of our clients and we will be adding it to our construction manual. This hides your splash plank (grade board). Thicknesses and dimensions can be found here (https://www.huduser.gov/publications/pdf/fpsfguide.pdf Table 2, Page 6). Even though you are not using radiant heat, I would run Pex-Al-Pex tubes in my floor and do under slab insulation. It is a huge selling point and gives you flexibility to add radiant floor heat easily at a later date.

Fishing Cabin Insulation

Fishing Cabin Insulation Blog-Compliments to Rick Carr in sharing this post on how he insulated his fishing cabin. 

My insulation challenges are a little unique due to having an above ground crawl space, radiant floor heating above the sub floor, 2×8 and 2×10 walls and having a partial attic area (over the bedrooms) with the remainder a vaulted ceiling.  My insulation is done and the drywall is going up.  The test for the plan will wait until next winter.

Here is what I did.

First I had closed cell foam sprayed.  In the crawl space, walls 3 inches closed cell spray foam, completely sealed and R 21.  Also we sprayed the underside of the subfloor to 1 ½ to 1 ¾ inches.  The goal was to get R 1- to 12 on the underside of the floor.  The radiant floor people tell me that heat moves to cold, so R 12 under the floor will have heat going up into the living space rather than down into the crawl space.  There is also R 10 foam board and poly under the concrete.

I also had 3 inches of spray foam, R 21, on the underside of the roof steel.  The drywall will go on the underside of the roof purlins.  We used 2 x 10 roof purlins to get a 9.5 inch cavity for insulation.  I put Tyvek under the roof steel, so the spray foam actually adheres to the Tyvek, this will allow replacement of roof sheets, if ever needed.  This still leaves a 6 inch space for R 21 unfaced batt insulation.  Spray foam people will tell you that because the spray foam completely seals the effect is greater than the R value.

The Attic side of the divider wall was also prayed with 3 inches of closed cell foam.  There wasn’t a normal 6 inch cavity to fill with batt insulation which made the spray foam a good choice for this.  We also blew in 16.5 inches of fiberglass insulation into the attic above the bedrooms for R 49 in that area.

 The walls are another matter.  The 42 foot walls on the north and south sides of the building are 2 x 10 walls with 9.5 inch cavity.  The 30 foot east and west walls are 2×8 walls with 7.5 inch cavity.  I chose blown in wall insulation for the walls.  It is commonly thought that you can only have a pro blow insulation into your walls, not so, I did it myself, with some help.

I chose Owen Corning’s Procat product and system, which can be purchased from contractor supply houses. https://www.owenscorning.com/insulation/products/procat  This is the same product as used in the ceiling.  The supply house will loan you the blower, which has a control at the end of the hose.  You staple Insulweb netting to the framing, cut a small slit in the netting, insert the hose and blow it in.  This might be a little more costly than batt insulation, but where do you find batts for 2 x 10 walls?  Also the electric all over the place gets in the way of batts, no problem, filled in and around.  The blown in insulation fills into all cracks and spaces.  What you spend in the product is also made up in time/labor savings; it goes very quickly once you get the hang of it and the netting up.

The puffing or pillowing is not a factor because the product is light enough that the drywall will straighten it.  Also you can use your free hand to minimize the pillowing if you have a large cavity.  The product R value for 5.5 inch cavity walls (2×6) is between R 22 and R 24 depending on how full you pack it in.  With my 2×8 and 2×10 walls, the R value is literally off the chart, well over R 30.

 

I think I’ll be snug this winter.

Spray Foam Insulation and Steel Roofing and Siding

Spray Foam Insulation and Steel Roofing and Siding 

Energy efficiency is a hot (pun intended) for steel roofed and/or sided post frame buildings, especially with a rise in popularity of barndominiums and shouses. Spray foam insulation systems have been a product of choice to achieve highly efficient building envelopes.

Of course with this, have come some concerns. I recently posed a couple of questions to Dr. Richard “Rick” Duncan, P.E. Technical Director for the Spray Polyurethane Foam Alliance (SPFA).

1) Will closed cell spray foam applied to the inside of steel roofing or siding panels cause panel deterioration and/or void warranty of the panels? 2) Can closed cell spray foam be applied to a Weather Resistant Barrier successfully? If so, any special considerations?

Rick’s response:

“This issue came up about five years ago with the metal building industry.  SPFA conducted a study and the results are attached.

Closed-cell naturally shrinks as it cools and cures.  It can take about a month for the gases in the cells to come to pressure equilibrium with the atmosphere.  When applying SPF to large open areas of metal panels, the shrinkage of the foam can cause some panels to pull inward.  We call this oil canning.  

Oil canning occurs most frequently on large unsupported panels (about 4’x4’ and larger areas) and on thin gage panels with small ribs.  You find these panels mostly on ‘low-cost’ pole buildings but not on larger industrial buildings.  For these large, thin panel areas, use picture framing and apply a thin flash coat to minimize oil canning…especially on ground-level walls where oil canning can be easily seen.  Our study did not show oil canning on the heavy-duty panels used in larger commercial buildings.  

One of the concerns that the metal building industry had was exothermic temperature damage to coatings and primers used on metal panels.  A few of the metal panel manufacturers were voiding their warranties because of this concern.  Our study measured exothermic temperatures of the panel during spraying and the temperatures were below 150F, which should not affect these coatings.

Our study also looked at using different fabrics applied during construction between the sheet metal panels and the framing.  We included Tyvek WRB and non-woven ‘BIBS’ fabric.  We found that SPF does not adhere well to the more expensive Tyvek.  It does adhere to the lower-cost non-woven.  We did see that the foam would pull the non-woven fabric away from the panel by about ½” and eliminates oil-canning.  The difficulty with using non-woven fabric is that it must be applied during construction.”

From MCA (Metal Construction Association)’s technical bulletin “Spray Polyurethane Foam Insulation on Interior Surfaces of Metal Panels”:

“Closed-cell foam is recommended due to its water resistant capabilities. Some SPF contractors use a release material such as building wrap or fabric to allow for easier change out of damaged panels, however the use of a release material poses the potential of creating air gaps between the back of the SPF foam and the metal panel. These gaps could allow condensation to accumulate between the SPF and the panel and framing members.”

The Case of the Leaking Post Frame Building Window

The Case of The Leaking Post Frame Building Window

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s hero – renowned sleuth Sherlock Holmes, was forever solving mysteries entitled “The Case of Something or Other”. To solve this particular mystery neither Holmes, nor Dr. John Watson’s skills will be required. Nor shall we need a call to Scotland Yard.

Reader Justin in California writes:

“Hi

I’m hoping you can tell me the truth about why windows might be leaking in a pole barn with metal siding.

I’m in California and had a local builder put this building up.

All of my windows leak…well they seep.

 

 

 

 

It’s not a lot and only happens when it rains a lot or rains with winds.

 

 

 

 

 

I see there is a water trail starting at the bottom of all windows and goes down.

 

 

 

 

I have attached photos of the inside and outside.

 

 

 

 

I was told that water hits the J channel then goes down and goes between the metal siding and the window wrap (Tyvec) and out the bottom….is this true?

 

 

 

 

 

Not asking for a fix just does that water travel between metal and the wrap?

Thanks.

P.S.

The blue frog tape marks where the leaks are.

The photos w/ the pex pipe…the water has been turned off so no water leaks coming from the pex pipe.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru writes:

There’s truth as to why you are getting leakage around your windows (drum roll please) – poor installation.

Another truth – water hits your building’s J channel then goes down and goes between the metal siding and window wrap (Tyvec) and out the bottom. This does not make it a correct installation however.

When I was constructing post frame buildings two decades ago we initially were doing an installation similar to what your builder did. We used a typical flanged vinyl window and trimmed it out with a surround of four sticks of J Channel. I had some really great building crews, guys who took a great deal of pride in their workmanship. Even then, we had call backs for over 10% of our window installations due to leaks! Construction callbacks are costly and crews hate going back to do rework. We solved this problem by going to vinyl windows with integrated J Channels. Poof – leak problems pretty much disappeared.

Your building has a Weather Resistant Barrier (good choice as it allows moisture from inside wall cavity to pass out, while keeping outside moisture out).

Before placing a window in a framed opening, a generous bead of caulking should be applied to seal between nailing flange and Weather Resistant Barrier. After installing window in opening, place self-adhesive flashing tape (3M All Weather Flashing Tape 8067 or similar) around the window. With steel trim J Channel, a serious bead of caulking must be placed between flashing tape (or flange if tape was omitted). As J Channel corners are overlapped, caulking needs to be placed between each overlap. Special attention needs to be given to lower corners of window to adequately and completely seal tops of ribs, so water running down panels cannot get between steel siding and Weather Resistant Barrier.

Inside closures (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/12/the-lowly-inside-closure/) or Emseal Self Expanding Sealant Tape Closures (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/03/emseal-self-expanding-sealant-tape-closures/) can be placed between top edge of steel siding below window and Weather Resistant Barrier to further limit a possibility of water entering your walls.

Wa-lah! Case solved.

 

Metal Building Insulation

Building Has Metal Building Insulation

Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer Rachel received an inquiry from a client whose existing post frame (pole) building has metal building insulation.

Rachel sent this to me:

“STEVE would like some advice on insulating.  He has a Cleary Building which has blanket insulation in the walls and roof and he would like to insulate over the top of this insulation and wondered if there would be issues.   

Steve mentioned that as your standing in the building you see the white vinyl on the inside.  Is there vinyl on both sides?  If not, shouldn’t the vinyl by facing the steel?

Any information or assistance you can give him would be appreciated.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru writes:

I am not much of a vinyl faced metal building insulation fan to begin with (read more here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/11/metal-building-insulation-in-pole-buildings-part-i/]. Even though I have it in roofs of my two older personal post frame buildings, it isn’t a product I would use if I were to construct a new building for myself.

Problems would come from having insulation sandwiched between two vapor barriers.

I would do this personally –completing each wall individually, I would remove wall steel, remove  wall metal building insulation. Cover each wall with a Weather Resistant Barrier (like Tyvek) and reapply wall steel. Spray two inches of closed cell foam insulation upon the inside of the wall steel. If full wall thickness bookshelf girts were not used in the walls (flush or extending inside of columns), another set of girts should be added to the inside surface of columns. Your engineer of Record (engineer who sealed your building plans) should be consulted to determine proper size and spacing of girts. Once installed, fill insulation cavity completely using BIBs. Glue two inches of rigid closed cell foam insulation board, taping all seams, to the inside face of girts. Glue interior finish (typically gypsum drywall) to the inside of foam boards.

PBG NOTE ADDED: Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer Rick Carr aptly pointed out to me WRB (Weather Resistant Barrier) purpose would be defeated by spray foam application. Correct application should be one only, however only after metal building insulation removal.

For your roof, provided trusses are adequate to support applicable dead loads, I would install a truss bottom chord level ceiling. This would allow insulation to be blown into dead attic space. In order to achieve adequate insulation above the sidewalls, it may prove necessary to use closed cell spray foam insulation above the ceiling in areas closest to the sidewalls. If eaves have ventilated soffits, ensure an inch or more of free air space exists between insulation and roof deck (or metal building insulation). Appropriate ventilation must be provided in dead air area above insulation.

 

Insulating a Steel Truss Building

Insulating a Steel Truss Building

Reader JONATHAN in MISSISSIPPI has been planning a building using steel trusses and has insulating questions. He writes:

“I have recently found your blog and I have to say I am on good information overload.  I’ve read your posts on insulation and air barrier more than twice maybe more.  I live in Mississippi so hot and so humid.

My plan is to build a 32×60 using steel trusses 10′ on center and 2×6 purlins and at the 28′ mark I am wanting to put up a wall to cut the space in two, half wood shop half living area. My biggest question is about insulating the roof for both areas the same, which would be a closed/unvented roof (no attic). I am going to put sheeting over the whole building (walls and roof) and use closed cell spray foam for insulation on the roof, filling the entire cavity of the 2×6’s.  On the underside of the 2×6’s I am going to install some seasoned metal for the ceiling. 

My question is, what if anything do I need to install between the metal roofing and the sheeting? Tyvek? 30# roof felt? or would this work https://www.lowes.com/pd/48-in-x-250-ft-1000-sq-ft-Synthetic-Roof-Underlayment/3151833? Does a unvented/closed roof need to breathe any? Because if it doesn’t I really like the synthetic roof underlayment. Or do you have any suggestions?

On the walls I am going to stud vertically between the posts with 2×6’s with sheeting on the outside, cover it with Tyvek, and metal over that. What suggestions do you have on insulating the walls? Do I need an additional vapor barrier on the inside of the walls? I was thinking maybe a thin layer of closed cell foam on the inside and going with mineral wool insulation batts between the studs.

I had a lot more questions than I thought I did, whew! I just want to make sure I am doing it right, without any problems down the road and I am ok with a little overkill and cost to do it. Just wish I could afford/justify SIP panels for the roof.  

Any and all information and guidance is appreciated.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru writes:
I will first express my concern for your desire to use steel trusses. Unless your provider can furnish engineer sealed drawings showing adequate load carrying capacity for your particular circumstances (you have added dead loads beyond what they are typically designed for, as well as an appropriate wind load) I’d be running away from them. They also should be designed to minimize deflection. I’d want some written proof of these trusses having been third party inspected for quality as well. You are going to be making a significant investment into your new building – no reason to have it fall down around you.

Moving forward. Between roof sheathing and steel roofing you do need to have something. A minimum of 30# felt should be used, although synthetic underlayment would be just fine. You may want to investigate a system including a ventilated roof mat, as it will reduce thermal heat transmission. A weather resistant barrier such as Tyvek would be an absolute wrong product.

For walls, you should create a thermal break between studs and interior. I’d glue two inch closed cell foam boards to stud inside face and then glue 5/8″ gypsum wallboard to foam board inside face. I’d probably fill wall cavity with BIBs insulation rather than closed cell foam and mineral wool batts. This will more fully fill cavity without creating voids.

I have yet to see SIPs as being economically practical. They appear to be expensive enough so as to preclude ever being able to recoup investment costs.

 

 

Help! My Overhead Door Jambs are Rotting!

Help! My Overhead Door Jambs Are Rotting!

I am fairly certain this problem occurs more often than I hear about. Reader DAVID in ROLLING PRAIRIE writes:

“Enclosed are two pictures showing my pole building’s overhead door. One picture is the inside door jamb that is decaying from water damage and the other one is a picture of the outside J channel and siding above the overhead door. My question what items need to be removed and what needs to be done to repair and seal the inside door jamb area? This an FBi building built in 1989. The outside upper J channel appears not to be sagging and there is no evidence of any leaks from roofing or front walls.


Thank you in advance for any help given.”

Mike the Pole Building Guru responds:

Thank you for sending photos. As you can tell from photo of outside J Channel, water has been collecting in channel, resulting in wall steel deterioration. Water most likely enters your building through one or more of – a hole or holes have rusted through J Channel, an uncaulked splice along top jamb length, or poorly executed (and possibly uncaulked) trim intersection at opening corners.

If it was my own building, I would approach a solution in this fashion:

In order to repair this area properly will involve having to remove some siding. Your building’s siding was fastened with nails, meaning it will be destroyed in removal process. Therefore, I’d remove all steel siding and trims from this building wall and replace them. Over 29 years your paint has faded and chalked significantly. For replacement I would go with Kynar painted panels (read more about Kynar here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/?s=Kynar). While in steel replacement mode, I would add wainscot to this wall, regardless of whether building balance has it or not. Wainscot will enhance your building’s appearance, as well as providing short length panels easily replaced if damaged.

I would remove present overhead door jamb boards and, as a precautionary measure, replace them with pressure preservative treated lumber. Any cut ends I would treat liberally with Copper Napthenate solution. Cover the entire framed wall with Weather Resistant Barrier (think Tyvek). Wrap barrier completely around wood jambs and staple to inside wall. Wooden overhead jambs should be covered with steel trim with an integrated J Channel to receive siding. Place self-adhesive flashing tape (3M All Weather Flashing Tape 8067 or similar) between weather resistant barrier and overhead jamb trim. Avoid a splice in horizontal trim across the top, if possible. Some steel roll formers will make trims long enough for a 16 foot wide door. Overlap trims at corners so any water potentially seeping in rolls onto yet another steel piece. Place liberal caulking amounts behind and between any trim splices or overlaps, especially near corners.

When installing steel siding above door opening, cut panels so bottom edge lands 1/2″ above integrated J Channel low point. This will reduce steel panel premature decay possibility. Use form fitted inside closure strips between these panels and jamb trim flange above the door opening.

Good luck, and please do send me pictures of the final result!

 

 

Plastic Under Roof Steel?

Plastic Under Roof Steel?

Reader Loren is persistent, he wanted to ask a question in regards to placing plastic under roof steel to prevent condensation, however the wonderful world of technology was making it a challenge. Thinking – Loren emailed me directly.

Here are Loren’s own words:

“I’ve been trying to submit a question to the pole building guru for a while now with no success. Website keeps saying ‘invalid form’?  So, I was hoping this email could find its way to Mike, I’d really like for him to weigh in on it. Thanks!

I’ve been scouring your blog for weeks now looking at how to handle water vapor and condensation in my soon to be garage. I know to use Tyvek or similar between the metal siding and purlins, my question is in regards to the roof. I plan to insulate the ceiling (most likely blown in) in the next year or two, so would a good heavy plastic (6 mil) between the roof metal and purlins work for my moisture barrier rather than the foil bubble insulation?  Since I’ll have a finished/insulated ceiling and a well vented attic I was hoping to skip the insulative properties of the foil bubble and go straight plastic. Will that work in my case?  Or would this even be a good application for the felt backed roof metal?  I’ll also lay a well sealed plastic barrier under my slab. Thanks for all of your help via previous posts, just couldn’t find anything about using plastic under roofing.  I’m trying to build this garage the right way, but also keeping budget in mind. Thanks again!”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Technology is great, when it works. Thank you for the heads up on the error message, our IT team is working on a fix now.

Plastic (visqueen) under your roof steel will not solve the condensation challenges. Instead you will have condensation on the underside of the visqueen. (to read up on the history of Visqueen and why not to use it under wall steel: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/07/moisture-barrier/)  In order to minimize (or ideally eliminate) potential condensation it requires airflow (vented eaves and ridge being the best combination) as well as a thermal break. While a reflective radiant barrier (aka – foil bubble, which is NOT insulation no matter how hard someone tries to convince you) will do the job as long as it has properly sealed overlaps and will be very cost effective, if it was my own building I would be looking at felt backed roof steel (Condenstop or Dripstop) due to the ease of installation.

For more information on Condenstop: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/07/condenstop/.

Make sure to order trusses with raised heels, so you get the full attic insulation thickness across the entire ceiling. Take desired R value, divide by three and add two to get the height of the truss heels.

 

The Idea of Heating, Post Heave, and Interior Housewrap

Mike the Pole Barn Guru discusses The Idea of Heating the building in the future, Post Heave, and Interior Housewrap.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hi Pole Barn Guru, I am getting ready to order a kit for a new 38×40 pole barn in Southern Ohio. Initially it will be cold storage, but the idea of heating it someday lingers.

I read your opinion on condensation blankets, and I was in agreement, that installing between purlins and the metal seemed like a mistake. 

What is your opinion on bubble wrap? Then I assume I could put fiberglass batting directly against the bubble wrap at a later date? But the bubble wrap would keep the condensation down? 

Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you. BOB in OHIO

DEAR BOB: We sell millions of square feet of reflective radiant barrier (bubble wrap) every year. Installed properly, it is a great condensation control, however it has next to no insulating value.

If you think you ever might heat the building this is my recommendation – order the building kit package with raised heel trusses (at least two inches greater in heel height than the depth of blown in insulation – so for R-45 you would need 17 inches of heel height) and designed to support a ceiling (10 psf). Use enclosed vented soffits and vented ridge along with a reflective radiant barrier.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a barn where a water pipe under the ground cracked and was leaking water under the front of my barn causing my two front pole of my barn to heave up about a foot due to freezing and thawing(This was before I bought the property).  I have fixed the pipe, now how do I get my barn level again?

I look forward to hearing from you. GEORGE in KLEEFELD

DEAR GEORGE: The only way I can see to get things back to level involves having to excavate the area which has heaved so as to be able to get the building back to where it began. The biggest challenges will be not over excavating, and getting the soil placed back into the excavation properly compacted. There may be other issues with water in the soil and inadequate drainage beneath the building which could cause future problems. It would behoove you to involve a registered engineer with extensive experience in soils to take a look at your site and give an expert opinion.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Once again, thanks so much for the info, lot of information out there to sort through. After thought, Cleary nailed all the sides and roof, removing the nails would result in a lot of damage. Can we use Tyvek on interior of 2×6 cross members or put it between the 2×6’s against the tin. Then put up unfaced 6″ fiberglass, poly, then plywood with a three foot tin boarder around bottom? If only we had the money and knowledge 20 years ago. Thanks again. MIKE in PALMYRA

housewrapDEAR MIKE: Sorry to hear all of the steel was nailed on your building – chances are more than fair they will start to pose more challenges, between leaking and premature deterioration, if they have not begun to do so already. The difference in cost between nails and screws for attaching steel is so minuscule in relationship to what was invested in the building itself. Of your two ideas proposed, probably the most likely to be successful is to completely wrap the inside of the framing with the Tyvek – this would include the columns, as it will be impossible to adequately seal all of the seams up against the posts. Keep in mind, the better you can seal it, the better the end resultant will be.


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3M VHB Tape

3M™ VHB™ Tape

Reader WILLIAM in DYER writes:

“I’ve been researching pole buildings, and the weak point for putting one up seems to be the screws and washers.  Have you looked into using 3M™ VHB™ tape instead of screws and fasteners for attaching the metal exterior sheeting? What are the pros/cons of tape only? Thanks.”

Personally the only way the screws holding the steel roofing and siding on would be the weak point would be if the wrong product is being used, or the right product is being improperly installed.

Here is the scoop on VHB™ tape straight from 3M™:

Details

  • Fast and easy-to-use permanent bonding method provides high strength and long-term durability
  • Virtually invisible fastening keeps surfaces smooth
  • Can replace mechanical fasteners (rivets, welding, screws) or liquid adhesives
  • Black, 0.045 in (1.1 mm), modified acrylic adhesive and very conformable acrylic foam core bonds to a wide variety of substrates including powder coated paints and irregular surfaces
  • Eliminate drilling, grinding, refinishing, screwing, welding and clean-up
  • Creates a permanent seal against water, moisture and more by offering better gap filling capabilities
  • Pressure sensitive adhesive bonds on contact to provide immediate handling strength
  • Allows the use of thinner, lighter weight and dissimilar materials

 

Dream, Design, Deliver with our 3M™ VHB™ Tape 5952. It is a black, 0.045 in (1.1 mm) modified acrylic adhesive with a very conformable, foam core. It can replace rivets, welds and screws. The fast and easy to use permanent bonding method provides high strength and long-term durability. It offers design flexibility with its viscoelasticity and powerful ability to bond to a variety of surfaces.

Convenience Meets Extreme Bonding Power 
Our 3M™ VHB™ Tape consists of a durable acrylic adhesive with viscoelastic properties. This provides an extraordinarily strong double sided foam tape that adheres to a broad range of substrates, including aluminum, stainless steel, galvanized steel, composites, plastics, acrylic, polycarbonate, ABS and painted or sealed wood and concrete. Our bonding tapes provide excellent shear strength, conformability, surface adhesion and temperature resistance. They are commonly used in applications across a variety of markets including transportation, appliance, electronics, construction, sign and display and general industrial. Reliably bonds a variety of materials with strength and speed for permanent applications. 

Dream, Design, Deliver with the 5952 Family of 3M™ VHB™ Tapes 
The 5952 family of 3M™ VHB™ Tapes utilizes modified acrylic adhesive on both sides of a very conformable, adhesive foam core. The combination of strength, conformability and adhesion makes this family one of the most capable and well-rounded 3M™ VHB™ Tapes. It is specifically designed for good adhesion to high, medium and lower surface energy plastics and paints, metals and glass. Applications for this tape include bonding and sealing polycarbonate lens over LCD, signage and windows to post-painted control panels. 

An Unconventional Foam Tape 
We invented 3M™ VHB™ Tapes in 1980 as the first of their kind. These unique tapes combine conformability with a strong, permanent bond. The result is a family of extraordinarily strong tapes that adhere to a broad range of substrates. 3M™ VHB™ Tape is a proven alternative to screws, rivets, welds and other forms of mechanical fasteners. Skyscrapers, cell phones, electronic highway signs, refrigerators, architectural windows and more all rely on this specialty bonding tape for one or more steps in the assembly, mounting, fastening and sealing process. This trusted and reliable tape offers a consistent bond, outstanding durability and excellent solvent and moisture resistance. 3M stands by all of its products and is there to provide you with design guidance and technical support when you need it. 

Proven Reliability from 3M™ VHB™ Tapes 
3M™ VHB™ Tape offers a durable bond in a way that mechanical fasteners can’t. This tape enhances the appearance of finished goods by eliminating rivets and screws while providing immediate handling strength. In most cases, fastening with 3M™ VHB™ Tape is a quicker process than drilling, fastening, or using liquid adhesive. Our versatile line of tapes can be used indoors or outdoors in a variety of applications, including window, door and sign assembly, electronics, construction and countless other industrial applications. Chemically resistant as well as UV and temperature stable, 3M™ VHB™ Tape can withstand the heat of Dubai to the cold of Canada. The unique acrylic chemistry is extremely durable and resistant to change over time, making this a long-lasting and powerful tape you can trust. 

Bringing Better Ideas to the Surface through Science and Innovation 
In our 3M Industrial Adhesives and Tapes Division, we apply the science of adhesion to deliver innovative solutions that improve the design and manufacturing processes of companies around the world. In the end, our technologies help customers like you deliver competitive products to the market faster and more efficiently. 

Mike the Pole Barn Guru comments:

Why it might not be the best choice….

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA

In order to utilize it with the steel panels, it would need to be tested for shear strength by an independent engineer. It would preclude the use of Building Wrap (like Tyvek) in walls, as well as radiant reflective barriers or Dripstop/Condenstop in roofs.

While it sounds like an excellent product, the cost along may prove prohibitive, as the lowest price I am seeing is somewhere around 70 cents per lineal foot, making it around 10 times as expensive as the diaphragm screws we provide and even more expensive than the smaller diameter lesser quality fasteners used by most post frame suppliers and builders.


 

The Drip, Drip, Drip of Condensation

Reader JIM in HOODSPORT writes about condensation issues:

“New Completed 40’ x 60’ pole barn with 16’ side walls and 24’ peak. Walls and ceiling insulated, 60’ long ridge roof vent. Full cement Pad with plastic vapor barrier under it. Cement was 60 days old when barn was completed.. rained just about every day. No windows or vents, using for RV storage and Shop. 2 – 12’x14’ roll up doors. 1 entry door. Will eventually have some sort of heat and ceiling fans installed.

Live in Hoodsport, Wa. Very near Olympic Mtns.

Issue is that the barn does not want to dry out … getting condensation on ceiling insulation…had contractor come out and clear out excess insulation that may have been blocking vent and make sure ridge is secure and no blowing rain can get in….had entire roof check for holes…

Still dripping..thought the vent and insulation would take care of the issue?

Afraid if I start putting vents all over the place I would be wasting the heat while I work in shop.

On a warm day should I open doors and get large fans and vent area of excess moisture? Get heaters in to dry out? Don’t propane heaters put moisture in the air?

Please Help…”


The short term solution is to open up the overhead doors and leave them open until it dries out.

Why you have the problem – your concrete floor is poured over a vapor barrier (excellent choice), however it does not allow any moisture to escape into the ground. You have a vented ridge, which will not work as it needs an air intake in order for air to escape from it. Your building should have had enclosed vented soffits – which would have allowed for airflow in at the eaves and out at the ridge.

Now – let us address the bigger and long term problem – you want to heat this building. As it stands currently, you might as well just put a heater out in the yard and expect it to warm your building. The “insulation” you have is nothing more than a condensation control blanket – it has an R value right close to absolute zero every time it crosses a wall girt or roof purlin. If your plan is to try to take the chill off a bit for an hour or two using a space heater, then you might as well plug up the ridge vent, which isn’t working anyhow.

If you want to be able to do a decent job of heating, you have some work to do.

First, get an engineered repair to upgrade your roof trusses to support at least a five psf (pounds per square foot) ceiling load. This can be obtained at a nominal charge from the company which manufactured your trusses.

Second, remove all of the wall steel. Take off the condensation control blanket in the walls and throw it away.

Third, install enclosed soffits with level returns on the eave sides. This will entail having to shorten the wall steel and adding some framing. Now the ridge vent will actually work. Put housewrap (think Tyvek) on all of the walls and reinstall the wall steel.

Fourth, after repairing the trusses, install ceiling joists between the trusses (2×6 #2 every 24 inches with joist hangers), install 5/8″ drywall on the underside and then blow in 15-20 inches of fiberglass insulation, making sure to allow at least an inch, if not two, of clear air flow at the eaves so you do not block the vents. This will mean a lesser R value at the sidewalls. You could have four inches of spray foam insulation placed on top of the drywall in the two feet closest to each sidewall, which would help.

Lastly the walls – fill the insulation cavity completely with unfaced insulation, cover with 6 mil clear visqueen, then gypsum wallboard.

Oh, another sidebar, please check the engineered truss drawings for your building – there may be some truss web bracing which is missing, most likely on the diagonal webs going up from the bottom chord at the center of the trusses.

 

DIY Kits? Fiberglass Insulation, and Free Quotes

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Are these DIY kits or do you guys do labor too? PATRICK in LOCKPORT

DEAR PATRICK: Hansen Pole Buildings provides complete custom designed and engineered post frame building kit packages which are aimed towards the average individual who can and will read instructions in English to successfully erect themselves.

In the event you are not so inclined, we can assist you in finding several builders in your area who have the interest in assembly of the building for you.

 

Insulating WallsDEAR POLE BARN GURU: Can I use fiberglass insulation in the walls of a pole barn? BOB in DUNBAR

DEAR BOB: Certainly you can use fiberglass wall insulation for post frame buildings. The question is, how?

To do so, you should have building wrap (think Tyvek) between the siding and any wall framing. If your building was not engineered in this fashion, closed cell spray foam insulation can be applied to the inside of the siding, then unfaced fiberglass insulation can be installed with a clear visqueen vapor barrier on the inside.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am looking for a metal pole storage for our pool plumbing pipe. We are just starting to gather information and prices. We want a building to be 25′ deep x 75′ long x 12′ high. We want the doors on it to be sliding doors. CARMICHAEL in WOODSTOCK

About Hansen BuildingsDEAR CARMICHAEL: Thank you for your interest in a new Hansen Pole Building. In most cases, the quickest way to get the information you are looking for is to call (866)200-9657 and ask to speak to a Building Designer. You can get a relative price by visiting https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/pole-barn-prices/ where you can further customize a building based upon some standard and cost effective dimensions.

In most cases, buildings with widths which are multiples of six and lengths which are multiples of 12 will result in the best value for your investment.

If either security or convenience are at question, you may wish to consider sectional steel overhead doors, rather than sliding doors.

 

How to Insulate My Post Frame Garage

How to Insulate

I fear “how to insulate my post frame (fill in the blank)” is going to be my most answered topic for the next decade. Energy efficiency is the “hot” topic right now and sadly there are more folks trying to solve what they already have, than there were those who planned for it correctly in the beginning.

Reader ERIC in FENELTON writes:

“Hello, I am wondering what the best and most cost effective way to insulate my post frame garage would be. I recently erected a 32’x48’post frame garage with glulam posts on 8’ centers, girts and purlins on 2’ Center’s, trusses on 4’ centers with 1’ overhangs with center soffit and ridge vent. Walls and roof are steel with double bubble between purlins and roof steel and tyvek between hurts and the wall steel. I will be building a wall to separate one of the bays as a metal shop for welding and fabricating. This will be the only bay that is heated and is 32’x21’. I am on a budget but my biggest concern is moisture. I installed the tyvek and double bubble hoping to positively effect the problem but am still hesitant to put fiberglass in the
walls but spray foam is out of my price range. I have seen some people cut 1 1/2” foam board to fit between the wall girts and either stop there or then frame traditional walls between the posts and add R13-R19 faced insulation. Is this an adequate way to insulate and will the foamboard keep moisture from the fiberglass? I will definitely be framing between posts and then covering with painted OSB regardless of the insulation method I choose. Also, I was leaning toward using fiberglass batts in the ceiling and then using the white liner steel under the trusses. They are 2×6 top and bottom cord trusses and rated for a ceiling. Fiberglass in the ceiling gives me the same moisture
concerns however. So I guess my question is, now that you know about my building, what is the best abs most cost effective way to insulate the portion of the building and avoid moisture? Spray foam is out of the question due to costs. I have been doing a ton of research but get different answers everywhere I go. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru
As long as the Tyvek is well sealed, you will not be gaining moisture from the outside on the walls. What you need to create is a dry wall cavity. Completely fill the wall with unfaced fiberglass (you might consider using BIBs https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/11/bibs/)
and cover the interior of the wall with a well sealed vapor barrier (clear visqueen will do nicely). Cutting foam board is an exercise in
futility unless you can figure out how to completely seal it, if you
stop at this point.

For your ceiling – there is a good chance you will experience
condensation on the underside of the steel ceiling liner panels. With
your vented eave and ridge, blown in fiberglass is probably the best
answer. If you do not have raised heel trusses, you should probably look
at spray foaming the first couple of feet of the ceiling area in order
to reduce heat loss from not being able to gain full thickness of the
fiberglass.

Wrapped the Wrong Way, Services, and Ceiling Liners

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I bought a home that has a newer pole barn (40×56, laminated 6″x6″ posts 8′ o.c…. 12′ walls) and the entire barn is wrapped with bubble wrap between the metal and perlins / girts. Would it be acceptable to frame 2×4 walls, and place bat insulation in the stud spaces? I ask because the concern I have is having a vapor barrier (bubble wrap) on the outside of the wall rather than on the inside, as with standard construction. Wall construction would be like this; interior sheeting (drywall, plywood, and ribbed interior metal), paper backed fiberglass insulation between framed wall set between posts flush to the inside, bubble wrap, metal exterior sheeting. Thanks for any advice, as I can’t get a straight answer from local contractors. Sincerely, TRENT in LEXINGTON

DEAR TRENT: I will give you the straight answer, because I have no skin in the game. All I care about is you get the best possible building for your investment.

The answer is you need to either get the bubble wrap out of your walls, or poke numerous holes in it so moisture does not become trapped in the insulation cavity. Personally, I would remove the wall steel, one wall at a time. Pull out the radiant barrier, replace it with Tyvek or a similar performing building wrap, then put the siding back on. While it sounds daunting, it should actually go fairly quickly. I’d use BIBs insulation in the walls with a six ml clear visqueen vapor barrier on the inside of the framing.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, this question seemed kind of answered in your FAQ, but I wanted to take a moment and ask anyways, as your website really seems to convey desire to work with the customer as well as a care for quality.  I’ve loved reading the Questions to the Guru!

Without getting into too much detail, I have acres of Loblolly Pine that I will be building an Event Center Barn out of. I’ve got a miller who’s working at some really great rates.

Ask The Pole Barn GuruI’m looking for an engineer to put all my thoughts on the barn together and stamp em so I can get going on the permit process.

Do you all provide JUST the engineering service, I wouldn’t be buying any material from you all, but I would of course supply all the information on the materials I’d like to use, look of it, etc.

If you all don’t, do you think one of your engineers might be interested in privately contracting it?

Again, I ask only because you all seem like a great organization.

Thanks for your time! JACOB in OJA

DEAR JACOB: Thank you very much for reaching out to us. Top quality is a high priority to us.

We and our engineers do not provide just engineering services, due to the inability to control the quality of materials which go into the completed project.

A concern about your choice of building materials – your Loblolly Pine should be both dried to a moisture content of 19% or less and be grade stamped in order to be used in an engineered building. You are probably ahead of the game to sell your timber and purchase the lumber with the proceeds of the sale.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, when installing tin to the ceiling in a pole barn. Do you want to run the full length of the building? Or should you run left to right with your sheets of tin? The building is 60×120. RYAN in WYOMING

gymnasiumDEAR RYAN: It will depend upon how you are supporting the liner panels. In our typical buildings, with double trusses spaced usually every 12 feet, we place joists every four feet between the truss bottom chords and run the steel the width of the building. If your trusses are spaced every four feet, you could safely attach the steel to the bottom of them and run the length of the building. I have heard of cases where trusses have been spaced every eight to 10 feet and people have attached the liner length of the building to the bottom of the trusses with no other framing supports. Personally I feel the deflection of the steel between trusses would be unsightly.


 

How to Make a Post Frame House Tighter

“How to Make a Post Frame Building Air Tighter”

One of our clients who is currently constructing his building recently wrote:  “Chapter 21 Wall Steel page 142 indicates, “Install sidewall steel perpendicular to base trim (plumb), holding wall steel up 1/4” from level base trim surface.” With the ¼” gap there would be openings for bugs and outside air to penetration behind the raised sections of the wall steel. Should the G-Ribs be used behind the wall metal at the base?”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:
The 1/4″ hold up mentioned in the Hansen Pole Buildings’ Construction Guide is to keep the bottom factory cut edge of the siding from being in contact with a surface (the base trim) which might catch water and cause the cut edge to rust over time.

Most people accept their accessory buildings of any type (whether stick frame, post frame or otherwise) are going to have a certain level of interior visits from smaller insects. Here in the Midwest – I can’t say I know of anyone who has a home which is not currently invaded by flies and Asian beetles.

Some steps to make your building closer to air/bug tight….(or certainly tighter)

Best solution – wrap your framed building with building wrap (think Tyvek) making sure it is sealed at the bottom and top as well as all joints and door/window openings. This is a good practice in the event you or some future owner/user of your new building should ever want to insulate the walls.

You could order more inside (skinny) adhesive backed foam closures and place them at the bottom edge of all of the wall steel (including above any door openings). As the top edge of the steel does not fit tight into the trim at the top of the wall, inside closures could also be placed there. Your building does not have endwall overhangs and the inside closures are designed to be installed straight across the steel panels. For the endwalls (where sealing involves going with the run of the roof line) – Emseal® Self Expanding Sealant Tape Closures (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/03/emseal-self-expanding-sealant-tape-closures/) could be placed either between the endwall steel and the flange of the corner/rake trims, or between the top of the steel panels and the underlying framing.

My brother used cans of spray foam insulation to seal the high ribs of the steel on his post frame garage – filling all of the voids from the inside.

No building is ever going to be completely airtight, however steps can be taken to reduce the portals for critters to crawl in.

Should Poly Plastic Barrier be Used on Interior of Walls and Ceiling?

Reader JUSTIN in MONROE writes: “Hello. Hopefully an easily answered question? I have built a 52×30 post frame, steel siding and roof. Walls have Tyvek between steel and girts. Roof is steel directly on purlins with no barrier of any kind. It has a concrete slab and I plan to periodically heat it during winter months. I’d like to insulate but not sure of best method with my situation and climate. I plan to use R-19 for walls and possibly ceiling. Or blow in for ceiling. Also I have 50% soffit ventilation with 18″ overhang as well as 40 ft of ridge vent. Should I use poly plastic on interior of walls and ceiling? I’m concerned I will create a moisture problem. I’m open to doing things whichever way is best. Things are always easier and cheaper to do it correctly the first time. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks”

Dear Justin,

housewrapI agree things are always best when done correctly the first time around. While it is not always less of an investment, when the long term problems arise and things have to be corrected, it makes it nearly not as fun and cheap becomes expensive. Usually in a quick hurry.

If the roof trusses are not designed for at least a five pounds per square foot bottom chord dead load, you are sunk on adding a ceiling without an engineered truss repair. This would be the place to start, as it will dictate the solution.

I will approach the building as if it is my own and from where it is now.

On the floor – I am hoping you have a vapor barrier beneath the concrete slab. If not, use a high quality sealer on top of the floor.

A penetrating concrete floor sealer is likely the best bet to protect and maintain a concrete floor. These concrete floor sealers penetrate deep into the concrete’s pores coming into contact with the alkali and calcium ions, forming a gel.

This gel expands filling the pores and hairline cracks inside the concrete, turning the concrete into a solid mass. This process will prevent moisture and vapor migration up through the concrete floor, as well as down into it.

Look for a penetrating concrete floor sealer which is water based and says silicate penetrating solution on the specifications. These sealers can be applied with a pump up sprayer.

On the Walls-you did good with the Tyvek. Kudos! If your building has girts flat on the outside of the columns, you can add another set to the inside of the columns. If you have 6×6 columns, your post frame building will now have an 8.5 inches thick insulation cavity. I would use BIBs (read about BIBs here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/11/bibs/) for my wall insulation, and would have a deep enough cavity to get around R-35. There does need to be a vapor barrier on the inside (heated) side of the wall, under the gypsum wallboard.

Roof– the underside of the roof steel needs to be isolated from any warm moist air which would enter the attic. Use closed cell spray foam directly sprayed directly onto the underside of the roof steel. Assuming your building’s roof trusses are strong enough to support a ceiling, blown in insulation is going to be your most economical. Hopefully you (or your builder) had the foresight to order roof trusses with a raised heel so the insulation will remain full thickness from wall to wall. If not you may want to have closed cell spray foam insulation on the “cold” side of the ceiling in the area with a couple of feet from the sidewalls. Make sure to allow a provision for air in the overhangs to not be blocked from venting the attic.

Do not put a vapor barrier between the trusses and the ceiling. You want the warm moist air inside your building to be able to rise into the attic and be vented out through the ridge. And if you are going to insulate your ceiling, R-19 is really not near enough. At a minimum I’d think about R-38 or 45 blown in.

Thank you for allowing me to share some insight into insulation.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

Dear Guru: What Type of Insulation?

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Good morning, Mike … I have a question for you.

I’m trying to decide between a 30×40 barn and a 60×40 barn. It would have a gambrel roof with a loft. 16′ wide sliding door in the center of the short ends.

All other things being equal, what is the cost difference between 30×40 and 60×40?

Or is there a size that’s more economical?

Thanks, Mike T. in Kershaw, SC

DEAR MIKE T.: Having to design the loft to support hay weight is not so much of a challenge as it is expensive. For sake of discussion the comparison was done a full loft, however it may be more practical to only have the loft in the center.

There is an economy of scale with pole buildings. For practical purposes, the price per square foot is going to decrease as the building footprint increases (until clearspans become very wide). I’ve also never had a client tell me their new building is “just too big”!

In your particular case, you could double the size of the building, while increasing the investment by only about 2/3.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Renovating our pole building arena is an undertaking.  We were quoted $70k (which included windows to replace the plastic) so we are doing it ourselves. I expect materials to run about $25k in the end.  The company that sold me the metal ceiling panels based out of Kentucky told me that people in his area do it all the time and that the best way to go is with blown insulation, as fiberglass batting is a lot more time consuming to install.  I decided against spray foam because it is toxic to begin with and then they put fire retardants in the mix which is even more toxic.  Plus it is expensive.

What will happen if we don’t have a “thermal break” on the underside of the metal roof? There will be a lot of condensation falling on the blown insulation?  We have a roof vent which I guess is correctly installed because we never have water coming in even during the most violent and heavy of rain storms. Isn’t this vent enough to prevent condensation?

If a herd of animals lived in the building, then I would worry about condensation, but there will be maximum 2-4 live beings in there at one time.   Removing the roof to install a reflective radiant barrier is not an option.  How about covering the underside with “Tyvek” the stuff houses are wrapped in?  Are you saying the blown insulation on the ceiling will not do its job without this thermal break on the roof, or is it the condensation you are concerned about?   What does the reflective radiant barrier need to reflect?  Cold coming from outside, or heat coming from outside?

We have blown insulation in our 14 year old house.  I guess it is newspaper.  It works a charm.  We’re on a hill and it can blow out there and we’re cozy inside.  One can buy cellulose from Lowe’s or Home Depot and they lend you a machine to install it.   I was worried that wind from the roof vent would blow it around.  I was also worried critters would nest in it, although we have covered such access with 1/2″ wire mesh.  Nonetheless, critters are very resourceful about getting into things.  I was worried that if it got wet it would get moldy.  My daughter is very sensitive to mold.  Best thing is it stays dry….and like I said, we never had rain come through that vent, although when the conditions were right, we’d get a bit of snow blown in.  We have a lot of snow now, and no snow in the arena.  So it has to be special conditions. I thought of covering the blown insulation with tarps to protect it from wind or moisture.  Is that a good or bad idea?

BTW, we have no intention of heating the arena.  The goal is to have it warmer in there than outside….hopefully a little above freezing.

I guess for the walls we will use fiberglass.  The plastic panels will be replaced with double glazed “picture” windows (they don’t open) and will run the length of about 2/3 of the arena at 2′ high.

A trainer we met from Maine said he insulated his riding arena and it really helped keep out the cold.

I’m wondering what will happen in summer.  Will it keep out the heat, or trap it?

It’s great communicating with someone who knows what they are talking about.  I’d be happy to compensate you for your expertise.

P.S.  Here’s a fiberglass story.  The owner of a horse boarded at our farm had a plumbing leak in her basement.  The plumber came and fixed the leak and left.  Several weeks later she developed itching sores all over her body.  She woke up one morning with arms so swollen she could not bend them and a face twice the size of normal.  She went to the ER and they told her a dust allergy, so she threw out all drapes and mattresses, etc. and cleaned the carpet and whole place.  However, it didn’t help and she landed in the ER again.  Meanwhile they found out that the plumber had pulled away fiberglass insulation from the broken pipe, and because of the leak it was all wet.  He didn’t remove the wet fiberglass and so mold developed, and with the furnace down there blowing hot air (with the mold) all over the living space it made her VERY sick.  She moved out immediately and had to take a lot of nasty drugs, and she is still not well.  Plus, inhaled fiberglass is a known carcinogen, as you probably know.

A GREAT thing to insulate with is wool.  But who can afford it?  They do make wool “bats” for the purpose though.  CINDY

 DEAR CINDY: Without the thermal break under the roof steel, there will be condensation on the underside of the roof steel, which will result in rain upon the attic insulation. Ventilation alone may cure some, but not all of the condensation problems.

The major source of the warm moist air rising is the ground under your building (evapotranspiration). According to www.ScienceDirect.com the average value of the moisture evaporation with uncovered ground is 0.33 to 0.53 gallons per hour per square foot. For a fairly typical 60 by 120 foot riding arena, this could be between 57 and 90 thousand gallons per day!!

Housewraps like Tyvek are not vapor barriers – they are designed to allow moisture to pass through.

Reflective radiant barriers just happens to be a very cost effective thermal break. The aluminum facing on the exterior reflects radiant heat in the summer, keeping the building cooler.

Insulating your building will keep it cooler in the summer, there is no question there. As to the effectiveness for keeping things warmer inside, without a heat source the air inside will be at or near the temperature on the outside.

And thank you very kindly for your offer of compensation. I do my best to provide quality information for the good of the industry as a whole. If you feel I have been of service, please feel free to share the link to this blog with others.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

Vertical Flush Walls

There is a builder in my neck of the woods who advertises as “the only company around that offers…Vertical Flush Walls, for your pole building, shop or garage, which allows you to sheetrock inside your building without having to re-frame the inside!”

In the photo with this article, wall girts have been placed “barn” style flat on the outsides of the columns, where they would have failed in bending (read why they fail on their own here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/03/girts/).

vertical flush wallsTo me, vertical flush walls look like a stick framed stud wall has been built on the inside, which supports the wall girts and does exactly what it purports to do.

However there is an easier, faster and less expensive method, which provides for an insulation cavity deeper than the adding a second wall inside of the first, bookshelf style wall girts: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2011/09/commercial-girts-what-are-they/

In an typical 12 wide bay of this building, with a 14 foot high eave, to commercially girt a bay and be totally gypsum wallboard framed ready, it would require six 12 foot 2×8 for wall girts, a 12’ pressure treated 2×4, and 4 2x4x12 for blocking and backing. Total Board footage of lumber – 136.

As farmed in the photo shown, materials required are a 12’ pressure treated 2×6, seven 2x6x14 studs and a 2x6x12 top plate. Wall girts are six 12 foot long 2×6. Total board footage – 194, or 42% more lumber. Besides not making economic sense, the concrete slab is also required to be installed, in order to place the vertical stud wall.

Whilst it is wonderful for the builder to have added this interior “liner” wall in, there is something the builder missed, which is pretty important in buildings which will be insulated and climate controlled – building wrap (read more about building wrap here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/11/house-wrap/).

Great sounding marketing ploy, but in reality, just not very effective.

Dear Guru: Is Toe Nailing a Good Idea?

Welcome to Ask the Pole Barn Guru – where you can ask questions about building topics, with answers posted on Mondays.  With many questions to answer, please be patient to watch for yours to come up on a future Monday segment.  If you want a quick answer, please be sure to answer with a “reply-able” email address.

Email all questions to: PoleBarnGuru@HansenPoleBuildings.com

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, The bottom of my 2 x 8 skirt board is about 2 inches into the ground.  Is it OK to measure 10 feet from the top of the skirt board since it is so low?

As long as the steel siding is long enough I would like to do this. If I measure from the bottom of the skirt board and add my 3  1/2  inch. of cement  then my ceiling is lower. I can add another skirt board on top of the one that is there. I can add dirt up against the outsides so it looks  OK

I hope to work on this in the morning so please answer as soon as possible.

SITTING IN SALEM

 DEAR SITTING: You could do as you suggest (measuring the 10′ from the top of the 2×8 skirt board), as long as you add another 2×8 skirt board on top of the one you have installed, then fill up to the top of the lower 2×8 skirt board before pouring your concrete floor.

All of the steel for the siding is pre-cut to fit based upon a 0 point being the bottom of the 2×8 skirt board. There is no way to increase your interior height without ordering new wall steel or adding wainscot – either of which will prove to be a significant expense to pick up a few inches of height.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a pole barn that I am insulating. I am using rigid foam on ceiling between truss chords, covered with steel. Walls are 4×6 poles with 2×4 purlins on outside, sided with steel. I am adding 2×6 vertical studs on 24″ centers between poles, and stapling craft-backed roll f-glass insulation to studs, then covering wall with OSB. Should I consider stapling tar paper or other barrier to inside of purlins before adding the studs and insulation? There will be an air gap between the f-glass insulation and the outer steel, and moisture can get in via corrugations in the steel siding, top and bottom. Thanks! BUILDING IN BELLEVILLE

 DEAR BUILDING: You should place a housewrap (think Tyvek) ideally between the wall girts and the siding, but if not there, on the inside of the wall girts.

You can read more about housewrap here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/11/house-wrap/
Here are some hints as to how to minimize the cost of your framing to support the insulation, and reduce transference of cold/heat from the contact of 2×6 vertical studs with the exterior horizontal girts.

  1. Start by placing a pressure treated 2×4 on top of the slab, flush to the inside of the columns (this board will end up between the posts, as will subsequent ones).
  2. Cut 2×4 blocks to 22-7/16″ and nail one to the each post directly above the treated 2×4.
  3. Cut a 2×4 to fit between the posts, and place like a bookshelf on top of the blocks. Repeat this process throughout the building.For best energy efficiency, make sure to completely seal the facing of the insulation batts on the inside of the wall.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, I purchased my Hansen Pole Building some time ago. I’m just now getting around to drywall, but have always been stumped with one part of the construction. How are you supposed to attach the drywall “L” top plate? (I have the commercial girt setup). There just isn’t anything to attach the top plates unless I’m toe nailing it to the posts which doesn’t seem correct to me. The girts were attached to girt blocks, but the “L” top plate doesn’t have anything like that. Like I said…this one has stumped me for some time and now that I’m getting around to drywall I need to get the top plate installed.

Thank you very much, HARRIED IN HARRISVILLE

DEAR HARRIED: The distance from center to center of your wall columns is 12’. Conservatively, the “L” supports a maximum of 12 square feet (1/2 of the distance to the first ceiling joist, which is at 24 inches on center). 5/8” gypsum wallboard weighs 2.31 pounds per square foot. This makes the weight supported by the “L” of just under 28 pounds.

The 2005 NDS® (National Design Specification® for Wood Construction published by the American Forest & Paper Association) addresses toe nailing connections in “Design Aid No. 2”. To keep the design conservative, we will use the lowest Specific Gravity value of the commonly used framing lumbers (G=0.42 for Spruce-Pine-Fir). With the specified 10d common nail (3 inch length x 0.148 inch diameter), the lateral design value for a toe-nailed connection is 83 pounds per nail.

Placing two toe-nails through each end of the vertical member of the “L” would allow the “L” to support up to 332 pounds, many times the needed design requirements.

If you are uncomfortable with toe nailing the “L”, you could cut a notch out of the top “flat” part of the “L” 1-1/2 inches deep, to fit it tightly to the face of the column above the ceiling line. Two 10d common nails could be driven through the remaining portion of the “flat” of the “L” into the column, in addition to toe nailing them.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

Tyvek Thermawrap R5.0 Review

As my long time readers know, I am a proponent of having a high quality housewrap between framing (or sheathing) and siding for any pole building which will be climate controlled.

Therma WrapI also try to keep abreast of new products and innovations. Here is one which sounds good, but may not deliver.

After two years of research and development, DuPont announced the launch of what it calls an industry first: insulating housewrap.

“This is arguably the most important introduction in our product group in a long time,” says Jim Ash, new business development manager for DuPont. “It’s taking us into the insulation business, which is a big strategic push for us, and hopefully the first of many.”

In its construction, Tyvek Thermawrap R5.0 comprises the maker’s long-standing Tyvek housewrap bonded to an insulation blanket. The combination has allowed DuPont to enter into the continuous insulation category – an area which is getting increased attention thanks to requirements by the 2012 International Energy Conservation Code which went into effect October 18, 2013. Up to now, the category comprised mainly rigid foam panels for exterior insulation. Thermawrap R5.0 provides builders with another alternative to insulating pole buildings from the outside. The goal is to offer a net effective R-value of R-5.

It may seem counterintuitive to put padded insulation in a situation where contact with moisture is almost a certainty. Ash says not to worry.

“We all know it’s not a question of if, but when, walls will get wet,” says Ash. “Thermawrap R5.0 is as permeable as housewrap, which hits on the product’s No. 1 value proposition: it can dry from the inside or the outside. It breathes moisture vapor.”

DuPont says the Tyvek on the outside of the blanket works just as it would if it was installed on its own by keeping air and bulk water out of walls, but also serving as a breathable barrier allowing moisture vapor to escape to the outside. In addition, in cases where wall sheathing (typically plywood or OSB – oriented strand board) DuPont says the blanket increases the temperature of the sheathing, which decreases the chance for interstitial wall condensation in heating climates. “This reduces the likelihood of getting moisture vapor inside the walls,” Ash says.

For installation, Thermawrap 5.0 doesn’t require any unusual materials. Designed to be installed like housewrap with cap staples or cap nails (DuPont recommends its minimum 3/4-inch Tyvek brand fasteners), the rolls feature an uninsulated flap along the bottom edge which overlaps the course below to further prevent moisture penetration. Cutting the material, however is slightly different. Ash says shears, rotary cutters, or even a carpet knife work well for cutting and trimming Thermawrap R5.0.

Worried about compressing the material beneath siding? Thermawrap R5.0 measures 1.5 inches thick and DuPont says it will introduce Insulated Battens in mid-2014 to provide a stable base for the installation of fiber cement, wood lap siding, manufactured stone veneer, and stucco. The battens, however, are not needed behind vinyl siding, brick, or stone. This author’s take is – I am not seeing how it is the listed installation would not crush the insulation. Installers will, however, want to use 2×4 wood buck bump-outs around windows and doors so the openings are on the same plane as the blanket material.

Thermawrap R5.0’s benefits will come at a premium. DuPont says the total installed cost (including materials and labor) will run 15% to 20% higher than the total installed cost of a premium housewrap plus 1-inch exterior rigid foam insulation. The company expects Thermawrap R5.0’s thermal benefits, along with Class A fire rating and other benefits as mentioned will make the new material an attractive proposition to the industry.

The insulation blanket is made of proprietary fibers, including 20% pre-consumer recycled Tyvek. The product is available in 4-by-40-foot rolls. Each roll weighs approximately 26 pounds and Ash estimates about 20 rolls would outfit the average home.

Here is the rub when it comes to typical post frame construction, if being applied over wall girts and beneath steel siding, the insulation is going to be crushed down to nothing (basically R-0) every time it crosses a framing member.

In my humble opinion, to get the most bang for the buck, go with a thicker wall cavity to provide for thicker wall insulation, then use a traditional housewrap.

Dear Guru: How Can I Add a Vapor Barrier Now?

Welcome to Ask the Pole Barn Guru – where you can ask questions about building topics, with answers posted on Mondays.  With many questions to answer, please be patient to watch for yours to come up on a future Monday segment.  If you want a quick answer, please be sure to answer with a “reply-able” email address.

Email all questions to: PoleBarnGuru@HansenPoleBuildings.com

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a question about insulating my pole barn. I recently had a 32′ x 40′ x 12′ tall building put up by a local builder. I’m doing all the finishing work including electrical. I’m using steel liner panel for the walls and ceiling. The question is that I have already put up the walls and I did NOT put any vapor barrier up first. My plan was/is to blow in fiberglass in the walls but now I’m worried about mold growth and or moisture problems in the walls. I’m in SW Michigan and plan to heat the building. So the question is…Is there any safe way to insulate without taking all the metal down? I could probably drop sheets of Tyvek or plastic down the inside of the wall and then just blow the insulation in??  MEANDERING IN MICHIGAN

 

DEAR MEANDERING: First of all, Tyvek or other housewraps are not vapor barriers. For more information on housewraps see: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/11/house-wrap/

Second, unless you are going to use BIBS insulation, blowing fiberglass into a wall cavity is not probably the best solution, as in time, the insulation will settle. Read more about BIBS here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2011/11/bibs/

Assuming you have not yet installed the interior steel liner panels, the walls can be insulated with your choice of a variety of products, then place a vapor barrier on the inside and cover with the liner panels. 

 If you’ve already put up the interior steel liners, I’d strongly advise you carefully take them off, and then follow my directions above.  You will be far happier with the result, as mold is not a pretty problem to deal with.  And yes, with steel, you need a vapor barrier.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I HAVE A HANSEN POLE BARN 30′ X 54′. IM ADD A SHED ROOF TO IT. IM HAVING A HARD TIME FIND THE RIGHT METAL FLASHING. TO CONNENT THE SHED ROOF TO THE SIDE WALL. THANK YOU. DETERMINED DAN

DEAR DETERMINED: We can provide any materials needed to add onto a Hansen Pole Building. A concern of ours is people who add onto their buildings, without a proper structural design analysis being performed. In the case of original buildings which were designed by an engineer, adding on to it, without engineering, will absolve the engineer of any liability from the original design. Many building failures are the result of inadequately design additions to existing buildings, some of which cause undue stresses and loads to be imparted upon the existing structure.  I encourage you to call our home office and discuss adding this shed roof, along with getting the right materials to make it water tight.

Dear Guru: Do I Need Vapor Barrier Under Insulation?

Welcome to Ask the Pole Barn Guru – where you can ask questions about building topics, with answers posted on Mondays.  With many questions to answer, please be patient to watch for yours to come up on a future Monday segment.  If you want a quick answer, please be sure to answer with a “reply-able” email address.

Email all questions to: PoleBarnGuru@HansenPoleBuildings.com

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Is it a huge mistake to go without a vapor barrier on the walls?  How about Tyvek on the walls during construction?  I was thinking of doing Tyvek between the metal siding and the purlins to at least get that vapor barrier in there, just in case I decide to put insulation in my walls later when the budget allows.  Thoughts? CONTEMPLATING IN KANSAS CITY

DEAR CONTEMPLATING: If you EVER think you or the person(s) who own your pole building after you, will ever apply insulation to the walls of a building – then placing a quality house wrap between the wall girts and the siding (whether it be steel or any other material) is an excellent idea for a vapor barrier. At time of construction is the one single time in which it will be extremely easy to add.

To learn more about house wrap: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/11/house-wrap/

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU Insulation – I read your warning about the steel skin acting like “unibody” construction, so it should be applied directly to framing. What is a good way to use foil-faced foam board for putting insulation on a roof? I want to avoid using the large rolls of insulation that will sag in 6-8 years? LEARY IN LOUISIANA

DEAR LEARY: I am glad you have been reading and paying attention.  Your new building will be well planned, with pleasing results. I just am seeing no way for foil-faced foam board to be a practical and economical solution for roof insulation. Here is a link to an article I wrote which might give you some further food for thought:

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2013/07/insulation-6/