Tag Archives: Condenstop

Storage of Steel Roofing and Siding Panels

Storage of Steel Roofing and Siding at the Job site 

All steel roofing and siding panel bundles are inspected and approved by manufacturer’s quality control inspectors before shipment. Inspect panels for any moisture content or shipping damage upon delivery and advise the materials carrier immediately.

Bare (non-painted) Galvalume sheet, like galvanized, is subject to wet storage staining and turns gray to black if moisture is trapped between coil laps, cut length sheets, or roll formed parts during shipping and storage. Steel mills treat Galvalume sheet to retard wet storage staining; however, take precautions to keep Galvalume sheeting dry at work site.

Jobsite storage of steel building panels (provided by Building Products Technical Committee of National Coil Coaters Association):

Two Rules to Live By:

1)  Keep job site storage time to a minimum with proper scheduling

2)  Keep panels dry.

“Moisture trapped within panel bundles can cause the finish to soften and become more susceptible to erection handling damage. Panels stored wet for extended periods in humid conditions will oxidize (rust). Such damage is avoidable with proper planning and practice.

Panel bundles should be stored under a roof  or at least, out of direct sunlight. Bundles should be slanted at an angle [from end to end] sufficient to facilitate drainage and high enough off the ground for good air movement all around. Do not use tight-fitting plastic-type tarpaulins as panel bundle covers. While they may provide protection from heavy downpours, they can also retard necessary ventilation and trap heat and moisture causing the so-called “greenhouse effect” that accelerates corrosion. Long panels must have additional support to prevent sagging and potential water accumulation in the sag.

If panel bundles arrive wet or become wet at the job site, break them open and allow them to dry completely.”

When moisture is found, besides breaking apart bundles, drain each panel and wipe dry. After dried, carefully re-stack panels and loosely recover allowing for ample air circulation.

Extended panel storage in a bundle is not recommended. Prevent bundled sheets from being in contact with accumulating water. Under no circumstance store sheets near or in contact with salt water, corrosive chemicals, ash, or fumes generated or released inside a building or nearby plants, foundries, plating works, kilns, fertilizer, and wet or green lumber.

Steel Roofing with Condenstop or Dripstop And Jobsite Storage  

Warning: Storing panel bundles prior to installation could allow moisture to become trapped between panels and may cause damage to panels. This moisture can originate from a variety of sources such as rain, high humidity or condensation. Panels should be stored in a dry location and installed as quickly as possible when arriving at the job site to prevent damage. If this is impossible, proper consideration should be given to separate panels to allow for air circulation prior to installation. Allowing moisture to become trapped within panel bundles can void all panel warranties.

Plastic Under Roof Steel?

Plastic Under Roof Steel?

Reader Loren is persistent, he wanted to ask a question in regards to placing plastic under roof steel to prevent condensation, however the wonderful world of technology was making it a challenge. Thinking – Loren emailed me directly.

Here are Loren’s own words:

“I’ve been trying to submit a question to the pole building guru for a while now with no success. Website keeps saying ‘invalid form’?  So, I was hoping this email could find its way to Mike, I’d really like for him to weigh in on it. Thanks!

I’ve been scouring your blog for weeks now looking at how to handle water vapor and condensation in my soon to be garage. I know to use Tyvek or similar between the metal siding and purlins, my question is in regards to the roof. I plan to insulate the ceiling (most likely blown in) in the next year or two, so would a good heavy plastic (6 mil) between the roof metal and purlins work for my moisture barrier rather than the foil bubble insulation?  Since I’ll have a finished/insulated ceiling and a well vented attic I was hoping to skip the insulative properties of the foil bubble and go straight plastic. Will that work in my case?  Or would this even be a good application for the felt backed roof metal?  I’ll also lay a well sealed plastic barrier under my slab. Thanks for all of your help via previous posts, just couldn’t find anything about using plastic under roofing.  I’m trying to build this garage the right way, but also keeping budget in mind. Thanks again!”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Technology is great, when it works. Thank you for the heads up on the error message, our IT team is working on a fix now.

Plastic (visqueen) under your roof steel will not solve the condensation challenges. Instead you will have condensation on the underside of the visqueen. (to read up on the history of Visqueen and why not to use it under wall steel: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/07/moisture-barrier/)  In order to minimize (or ideally eliminate) potential condensation it requires airflow (vented eaves and ridge being the best combination) as well as a thermal break. While a reflective radiant barrier (aka – foil bubble, which is NOT insulation no matter how hard someone tries to convince you) will do the job as long as it has properly sealed overlaps and will be very cost effective, if it was my own building I would be looking at felt backed roof steel (Condenstop or Dripstop) due to the ease of installation.

For more information on Condenstop: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/07/condenstop/.

Make sure to order trusses with raised heels, so you get the full attic insulation thickness across the entire ceiling. Take desired R value, divide by three and add two to get the height of the truss heels.

 

3M VHB Tape

3M™ VHB™ Tape

Reader WILLIAM in DYER writes:

“I’ve been researching pole buildings, and the weak point for putting one up seems to be the screws and washers.  Have you looked into using 3M™ VHB™ tape instead of screws and fasteners for attaching the metal exterior sheeting? What are the pros/cons of tape only? Thanks.”

Personally the only way the screws holding the steel roofing and siding on would be the weak point would be if the wrong product is being used, or the right product is being improperly installed.

Here is the scoop on VHB™ tape straight from 3M™:

Details

  • Fast and easy-to-use permanent bonding method provides high strength and long-term durability
  • Virtually invisible fastening keeps surfaces smooth
  • Can replace mechanical fasteners (rivets, welding, screws) or liquid adhesives
  • Black, 0.045 in (1.1 mm), modified acrylic adhesive and very conformable acrylic foam core bonds to a wide variety of substrates including powder coated paints and irregular surfaces
  • Eliminate drilling, grinding, refinishing, screwing, welding and clean-up
  • Creates a permanent seal against water, moisture and more by offering better gap filling capabilities
  • Pressure sensitive adhesive bonds on contact to provide immediate handling strength
  • Allows the use of thinner, lighter weight and dissimilar materials

 

Dream, Design, Deliver with our 3M™ VHB™ Tape 5952. It is a black, 0.045 in (1.1 mm) modified acrylic adhesive with a very conformable, foam core. It can replace rivets, welds and screws. The fast and easy to use permanent bonding method provides high strength and long-term durability. It offers design flexibility with its viscoelasticity and powerful ability to bond to a variety of surfaces.

Convenience Meets Extreme Bonding Power 
Our 3M™ VHB™ Tape consists of a durable acrylic adhesive with viscoelastic properties. This provides an extraordinarily strong double sided foam tape that adheres to a broad range of substrates, including aluminum, stainless steel, galvanized steel, composites, plastics, acrylic, polycarbonate, ABS and painted or sealed wood and concrete. Our bonding tapes provide excellent shear strength, conformability, surface adhesion and temperature resistance. They are commonly used in applications across a variety of markets including transportation, appliance, electronics, construction, sign and display and general industrial. Reliably bonds a variety of materials with strength and speed for permanent applications. 

Dream, Design, Deliver with the 5952 Family of 3M™ VHB™ Tapes 
The 5952 family of 3M™ VHB™ Tapes utilizes modified acrylic adhesive on both sides of a very conformable, adhesive foam core. The combination of strength, conformability and adhesion makes this family one of the most capable and well-rounded 3M™ VHB™ Tapes. It is specifically designed for good adhesion to high, medium and lower surface energy plastics and paints, metals and glass. Applications for this tape include bonding and sealing polycarbonate lens over LCD, signage and windows to post-painted control panels. 

An Unconventional Foam Tape 
We invented 3M™ VHB™ Tapes in 1980 as the first of their kind. These unique tapes combine conformability with a strong, permanent bond. The result is a family of extraordinarily strong tapes that adhere to a broad range of substrates. 3M™ VHB™ Tape is a proven alternative to screws, rivets, welds and other forms of mechanical fasteners. Skyscrapers, cell phones, electronic highway signs, refrigerators, architectural windows and more all rely on this specialty bonding tape for one or more steps in the assembly, mounting, fastening and sealing process. This trusted and reliable tape offers a consistent bond, outstanding durability and excellent solvent and moisture resistance. 3M stands by all of its products and is there to provide you with design guidance and technical support when you need it. 

Proven Reliability from 3M™ VHB™ Tapes 
3M™ VHB™ Tape offers a durable bond in a way that mechanical fasteners can’t. This tape enhances the appearance of finished goods by eliminating rivets and screws while providing immediate handling strength. In most cases, fastening with 3M™ VHB™ Tape is a quicker process than drilling, fastening, or using liquid adhesive. Our versatile line of tapes can be used indoors or outdoors in a variety of applications, including window, door and sign assembly, electronics, construction and countless other industrial applications. Chemically resistant as well as UV and temperature stable, 3M™ VHB™ Tape can withstand the heat of Dubai to the cold of Canada. The unique acrylic chemistry is extremely durable and resistant to change over time, making this a long-lasting and powerful tape you can trust. 

Bringing Better Ideas to the Surface through Science and Innovation 
In our 3M Industrial Adhesives and Tapes Division, we apply the science of adhesion to deliver innovative solutions that improve the design and manufacturing processes of companies around the world. In the end, our technologies help customers like you deliver competitive products to the market faster and more efficiently. 

Mike the Pole Barn Guru comments:

Why it might not be the best choice….

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA

In order to utilize it with the steel panels, it would need to be tested for shear strength by an independent engineer. It would preclude the use of Building Wrap (like Tyvek) in walls, as well as radiant reflective barriers or Dripstop/Condenstop in roofs.

While it sounds like an excellent product, the cost along may prove prohibitive, as the lowest price I am seeing is somewhere around 70 cents per lineal foot, making it around 10 times as expensive as the diaphragm screws we provide and even more expensive than the smaller diameter lesser quality fasteners used by most post frame suppliers and builders.


 

Sliding Doors, Roofing Tar on Posts? and Condenstop!

Sliding Doors, Roofing Tar on Posts? and Condenstop!

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have an arena with 12×12 openings at each end. I want to find a rolling door solution. I would like to have 6.5” doors that open left and right. I’m also interested in finding a door solution that instead of tan metal (matching my building) I find translucent panels.

I can upload photos in a few days when I return to the farm.

Is this something you can help with?

Thanks JASON in CENTRAL POINT

building problemsDEAR JASON: If yours is typical post frame (pole) building construction, your opening probably measures 12 feet from center of column to center of column, in which case you would be looking at needing a 12 foot width split sliding door. This would give you two door leafs just over six feet in width, enough to cover the opening, provide an overlap on each side and be able to be covered with two three foot widths of steel siding.

You should be looking at a door system which has all steel girts (horizontals) and verticals, preferably pre-painted. While translucent (polycarbonate) panels could be used, I would typically not recommend them due to their not having a resistance to wracking.

In our case, Hansen Pole Buildings only provides sliding door components with the investment into a complete engineered post frame building kit package. We typically would recommend you pay a visit to the ProDesk at your local The Home Depot to acquire the parts you will need.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Enjoy reading your blog. I will be building in thick wet clay and am worried about post rot due to the amount of moisture. Will painting the entirety of the buried portion of treated pole in roofing tar help preserve the wood? TIM in LEXINGTON

DEAR TIM: Thank you for your kind words, I hope to be both entertaining and informative. Will painting the entirety of the buried portion of a treated pole in roofing tar help preserve the wood? Well, it might, although I have found no studies which would confirm the ability. I did find an interesting article in Scientific American, which may shoot down the idea: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-tar-and-its-products-as-preser/.

The reality of the situation is, a properly pressure preservative treated column is going to outlast all of us, and probably our grandchildren. This article should be of interest: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/12/will-poles-rot-off/.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello guru. I bought a bunch of 1/2x4x8 sheets of insulation to put on my new 40×60 barn roof under the steel and on top of purlins .Planned on taping all seams for a moisture barrier. It’s not the really dense foam more of a bead style with a silver back on one side plastic on the other so it’s a little bit squishy. After thinking about it what worries me is that after time it may cause the barn screws seal to loosen up. If the foam lowers it could cause the steel to drop a bit. Than could create a leak under the rubber washer. Or do you think it will work ok? Should I just use Tyvek instead on the purlins? What is your opinion Guru? ABE in WAYLAND

DEAR ABE: Do not use this insulation as you have intended, it will cause you nothing but grief. Not only will your post frame barn roof leak, but the diaphragm strength of your roof steel will be severely compromised, which could lead to a catastrophic failure. Tyvek and other building wraps are not condensation control barriers, they are moisture barriers. There are several possibilities – invest in roof steel with Condenstop or Dripstop preapplied, use a radiant reflective barrier between the purlins and roofing, or spray closed cell foam on after the roof is installed.

 

 

Commercial Girts Best for Drywall, Site Prep, and Condensation

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I’m considering a pole barn for my residence but had a question about the girt placement between posts. I read in the FAQ section that they are placed like shelves between posts. Would it be possible to mount drywall directly to these for interior walls without additional bracing or building of interior wall frames? I’m trying to avoid framing an entire building within a building, it seems pointless and not cost effective. If I need to frame every interior wall to hold drywall and insulation, I can simply build a standard stick frame house. VAN in INDEPENDENCE

Installing Drywall on CeilingDEAR VAN: Bookshelf girts for insulation (e.g. Commercial Girts) is a quick and easy way to create a deep insulation cavity as well as providing the framing for your interior GWB (Gypsum Wall Board). You will want to confirm your new post frame building frame is stiff enough to prevent undue deflection from cracking the GWB joints.

Learn more about commercial girts here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/09/commercial-girts-what-are-they/.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have property in an area that floods from time to time. For example, can a monitor barn (approx. 25×50). with side sheds be built. The idea I have is the side sheds serving as porches and under the barn would be a drive through area. there is already a modular home built in the area that is elevated about 4 ft. off the ground and they have had no problem . Thanks, MIKE in MOLINA

DEAR MIKE: You can build any sort of post frame building on your site which will be allowable under the limitations of your Planning Department. As to dealing with the flood issues, you should have your property elevations determined by a surveyor, and the site where the building will be constructed can then be built up so the floor will be above the flood plain level.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I recently purchased several 4’x50′ reflectix double bubble foil rolls. I’ve put up a brand new 30×56 post frame metal building and was going to use this product to keep the metal roof and walls from condensating not to mention I was hoping it would help keep some heat in during the winter and heat out during the summer until I truly insulate the inside. My question is, for ease of installation on my metal roof panels, is it acceptable to put the foil on the underside of the 2×6 roof joists instead of sandwiching it between the roof joists and metal? There will be no roof venting due to leaving the trusses and attic space exposed. My only real concern is that it could condensate worse installing it this way. Also I will not be continually heating the building. Only on occasion with a propane heater while I’m working. I’m not real savvy when it comes to insulation and condensation control so any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Brandon

DEAR BRANDON: While it would be easy to install the steel roofing without having to place the reflective radiant barrier between the roof purlins and the roof steel, it is going to be the easiest method to limit condensation issues, given the product you have invested in. Hopefully you have gotten the double bubble with a tab along one side and an adhesive pull strip, otherwise you will have to tape all of the seams as you work your way along the roof.

Could you place it on the underside of the purlins? Yes, however in order to work as an effective condensation control, it has to be absolutely tightly sealed against any protruding framing members. Remember the time you saved on installing the roof steel? You just ate it all up.

If you have not yet ordered your steel roofing you could resell the reflective radiant barrier online and order steel with I.C.C. (Integral Condensation Control) attached (see the article and video here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/03/integral-condensation-control/).

 

 

Integral Condensation Control

Integral Condensation Control (I.C.C.) products are manufactured and distributed with trade names such as Condenstop (which I have written about previously: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/07/condenstop/) and Dripstop.

Here are a few words on Dripstop, recorded live at the NFBA Expo held recently in Nashville, Tennessee:

I.C.C. provides drip prevention which is integral to steel roofing and is aimed at saving installation time and labor. I.C.C. is comprised of a polyester fabric with an adhesive glue layer which allows it to be adhered to the washcoat (the underside) of steel roofing panels. The fabric is attached to the sheet metal as it is being unwrapped from the coil and is roll formed with the panel, allowing the steel roofing to arrive on the jobsite ready for immediate installation.

Steel roofing with I.C.C. addresses drip prevention in a new way. By providing a wicking material to retain the moisture, condensation is no longer the enemy. This product works with the natural condensation cycle to prevent dripping and is far more durable than barriers. No additional products or inventory are necessary, and because I.C.C. is factory-applied, no additional jobsite labor is required. No need to worry about dragging around rolls of reflective or metal building insulation, just install the roof and get the job done.

To better understand how this product works, we must first discuss why condensation and dripping happen in the first place. When atmospheric conditions reach the dew point, air contains the maximum amount of moisture it can retain at its temperature. This is known as 100% relative humidity. Since cool air is unable to retain as much moisture as warm air, any drop in temperature from contact with a cooler surface essentially “wrings” the moisture out of the air. This is why fogging (condensation) is caused by the warm, moist air in our breath hitting a colder pane of glass. As the glass cools the warm, moist air contacting it, the moisture in our breath is “wrung” out.

As noted above, where warm air meets cool surfaces, the moisture in this air will often condense to the surface and form droplets. When exterior air cools steel cladding below the building’s interior temperature, the steel can provide this surface. Once condensation begins to take place, the droplets formed will combine as they contact one another, continuing to do so until they are too large to be supported by the liquid’s surface tension. At this point, dripping will occur, essentially raining on the structure’s contents.

Because some people are unaware of this process, many steel roofed post frame building owners are convinced all metal roofing leaks – a make believe ‘fact’ which can deter them from an otherwise superior product as well as cause headaches for both builders and post frame building kit package suppliers. In the past, the solution to this has been to provide a thermal break between the structure’s interior and the steel roofing to isolate the warm moist air inside the building from the underside of the cooler roof steel.

In theory, this is an excellent idea. In practice, it requires additional inventory and a large amount of additional labor. Meanwhile, the steel roofing waits to be installed. These problems are compounded by the fact barrier products are generally hard to handle and install in even mildly inclement weather.

Steel roofing with I.C.C. eliminates these delays, reduces inventory and simplifies construction without sacrificing drip-preventing performance.

The core of I.C.C. is a polyester fleece. When this material is adhered to steel panels, it greatly increases the surface area from moisture to cling to after condensing. The fleece provides hundreds of fibers per square inch for droplets to stick to, thereby greatly increasing the “grip” they have on the interior of the cladding. Because of this, a twelve foot panel can retain over half a gallon of condensed moisture.

 Steel roofing with I.C.C. is well suited for a wide variety of applications. Similar products have been available for over 15 years in Europe and have provided successful service on every continent and in nearly every climate in countless applications. Steel roofing with I.C.C. is well suited for self-storage, animal confinement, garages, grain storage, car ports, barns, aircraft hangars, stadiums and literally any other place where condensation and drip prevention are of concern.

The I.C.C. fabric requires contact with air to function properly, therefore it is not recommended for closed-decking applications. Also, it is not meant to function as insulation due to its low R-value.

In closed wall applications, any edges exposed to the exterior of a structure (i.e. the eaves), should be sealed to prevent moisture from seeping into the structure through the fabric.

The additional thickness of the I.C.C. fabric changes the roll-forming characteristics of steel panels, giving panels a slight “barrel-roll”. This effect is limited to an inch of curl up at the sides when the panel lays color up on a flat surface and provides no additional challenges for installation. Another effect is the reduction of smoothness at all bends in the panel. Again, this has no effect on performance of either panel or fabric. The barrel-roll is imperceptible after installation and the bend texture is indiscernible at distances greater than an arm’s length.