Tag Archives: dripstop

Planning for a Post Frame Home

When it comes to planning for a new post frame home, shouse (shop/house) or barndominium, there are a myriad of questions and concerns to be answered and pondered.

Or, at least I hope you are – rather than just stumbling in blindly!

Reader NICK in NORTH CAROLINA writes:

“Hi, I’m looking into options for building a post frame home in the coming year in NC and wanted to understand more of the details regarding your current building products and suggested techniques.  

Do you provide a means to support the posts on top of the concrete pillars with a bracket vs the post being embedded into the concrete?

Your current package only provides for insulation of the roof, no interior walls, correct?

Can another 2×6 skirt board be added to the inside of the building to isolate the concrete flooring from the post and to provide a cavity for insulation to be installed between the outside/inside girts?

Do you have a listing of contractors that are familiar with your products in given areas that could be used to build the structure?

If using the design service listed for $695, does that include the design for all interior walls/rooms/fixtures as well as electrical/plumbing/mechanical?

Thanks for any information you can provide.”

All good questions. In answer to them:

Yes we can provide plans with a third-party engineered design for bracket set columns, as well as brackets. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/05/sturdi-wall-plus-concrete-brackets/

We typically recommend using either a Reflective Radiant Barrier (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/05/effective-reflective-insulation/) between roof framing and roof steel, or using roof steel with factory applied Dripstop https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/11/drip-stop/

We can provide batt insulation for walls and/or ceilings, however there are more energy efficient methods of insulating https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/06/pole-barn-insulation-oh-so-confusing/

It (extra 2×6 interior splash plank) could, however there are structural advantages to having columns surrounded (constrained) on exterior splash plank interior. (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/11/importance-of-constrained-posts/) I’d recommend doing a Frost Protected Shallow Foundation post frame style instead: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/09/post-frame-frost-walls/

Although our buildings are designed for an average literate English speaking person to successfully construct their own building (most of them do, and do a wonderful job – because they will read and follow instructions), for those who do need an erector, in many areas we can provide contacts for you to vet.

Our floor plan and elevation package offer (http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/post-frame-floor-plans/?fbclid=IwAR2ta5IFSxrltv5eAyBVmg-JUsoPfy9hbWtP86svOTPfG1q5pGmfhA7yd5Q)  includes all interior walls, rooms and fixtures. For an added fee you can include electrical/plumbing/mechanical (note: typically all of these last three services can usually be provided at no charge by subcontractors who will be doing these specific trades).

Please feel free to reach out to me at any time with questions. An answer to most questions can also be found at www.HansenPoleBuildings.com by clicking on SEARCH in the upper right hand corner of any page. Type in a word or two and hit ENTER and up pop relevant articles.

Planning for a New Post Frame Home

When it comes to planning for a new post frame home, shouse or barndominium, there are a myriad of questions and concerns to be answered and pondered.

Or, at least I hope you are – rather than just stumbling in blindly!

Reader NICK in NORTH CAROLINA writes:

“Hi, I’m looking into options for building a post frame home in the coming year in NC and wanted to understand more of the details regarding you current building products and suggested techniques.  

Do you provide a means to support the posts on top of the concrete pillars with a bracket vs the post being embedded into the concrete?

Your current package only provides for insulation of the roof, no interior walls, correct?

Can another 2×6 skirt board be added to the inside of the building to isolate the concrete flooring from the post and to provide a cavity for insulation to be installed between the outside/inside girts?

Do you have a listing of contractors that are familiar with your products in given areas that could be used to build the structure?

If using the design service listed for $695, does that include the design for all interior walls/rooms/fixtures as well as electrical/plumbing/mechanical?

Thanks for any information you can provide.”

All good questions. In answer to them:

Yes we can provide plans with a third-party engineered design for bracket set columns, as well as brackets. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/05/sturdi-wall-plus-concrete-brackets/

We typically recommend using either a Reflective Radiant Barrier (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/05/effective-reflective-insulation/) between roof framing and roof steel, or using roof steel with factory applied Dripstop https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/11/drip-stop/

We can provide batt insulation for walls and/or ceilings, however there are more energy efficient methods of insulating https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/06/pole-barn-insulation-oh-so-confusing/

It (extra 2×6 interior splash plank) could, however there are structural advantages to having columns surrounded (constrained) on exterior splash plank interior. (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/11/importance-of-constrained-posts/) I’d recommend doing a Frost Protected Shallow Foundation post frame style instead: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/09/post-frame-frost-walls/

About Hansen BuildingsAlthough our buildings are designed for an average literate English speaking person to successfully construct their own building (most of them do, and do a wonderful job – because they will read and follow instructions), for those who do need an erector, in many areas we can provide contacts for you to vet.

Our floor plan and elevation package offer (http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/post-frame-floor-plans/?fbclid=IwAR2ta5IFSxrltv5eAyBVmg-JUsoPfy9hbWtP86svOTPfG1q5pGmfhA7yd5Q)  includes all interior walls, rooms and fixtures. For an added fee you can include electrical/plumbing/mechanical (note: typically all of these last three services can usually be provided at no charge by subcontractors who will be doing these specific trades).

Please feel free to reach out to me at any time with questions. An answer to most questions can also be found at www.HansenPoleBuildings.com by clicking on SEARCH in the upper right hand corner of any page. Type in a word or two and hit ENTER and up pops relevant articles.

Storage of Steel Roofing and Siding Panels

Storage of Steel Roofing and Siding at the Job site 

All steel roofing and siding panel bundles are inspected and approved by manufacturer’s quality control inspectors before shipment. Inspect panels for any moisture content or shipping damage upon delivery and advise the materials carrier immediately.

Bare (non-painted) Galvalume sheet, like galvanized, is subject to wet storage staining and turns gray to black if moisture is trapped between coil laps, cut length sheets, or roll formed parts during shipping and storage. Steel mills treat Galvalume sheet to retard wet storage staining; however, take precautions to keep Galvalume sheeting dry at work site.

Jobsite storage of steel building panels (provided by Building Products Technical Committee of National Coil Coaters Association):

Two Rules to Live By:

1)  Keep job site storage time to a minimum with proper scheduling

2)  Keep panels dry.

“Moisture trapped within panel bundles can cause the finish to soften and become more susceptible to erection handling damage. Panels stored wet for extended periods in humid conditions will oxidize (rust). Such damage is avoidable with proper planning and practice.

Panel bundles should be stored under a roof  or at least, out of direct sunlight. Bundles should be slanted at an angle [from end to end] sufficient to facilitate drainage and high enough off the ground for good air movement all around. Do not use tight-fitting plastic-type tarpaulins as panel bundle covers. While they may provide protection from heavy downpours, they can also retard necessary ventilation and trap heat and moisture causing the so-called “greenhouse effect” that accelerates corrosion. Long panels must have additional support to prevent sagging and potential water accumulation in the sag.

If panel bundles arrive wet or become wet at the job site, break them open and allow them to dry completely.”

When moisture is found, besides breaking apart bundles, drain each panel and wipe dry. After dried, carefully re-stack panels and loosely recover allowing for ample air circulation.

Extended panel storage in a bundle is not recommended. Prevent bundled sheets from being in contact with accumulating water. Under no circumstance store sheets near or in contact with salt water, corrosive chemicals, ash, or fumes generated or released inside a building or nearby plants, foundries, plating works, kilns, fertilizer, and wet or green lumber.

Steel Roofing with Condenstop or Dripstop And Jobsite Storage  

Warning: Storing panel bundles prior to installation could allow moisture to become trapped between panels and may cause damage to panels. This moisture can originate from a variety of sources such as rain, high humidity or condensation. Panels should be stored in a dry location and installed as quickly as possible when arriving at the job site to prevent damage. If this is impossible, proper consideration should be given to separate panels to allow for air circulation prior to installation. Allowing moisture to become trapped within panel bundles can void all panel warranties.

Plastic Under Roof Steel?

Plastic Under Roof Steel?

Reader Loren is persistent, he wanted to ask a question in regards to placing plastic under roof steel to prevent condensation, however the wonderful world of technology was making it a challenge. Thinking – Loren emailed me directly.

Here are Loren’s own words:

“I’ve been trying to submit a question to the pole building guru for a while now with no success. Website keeps saying ‘invalid form’?  So, I was hoping this email could find its way to Mike, I’d really like for him to weigh in on it. Thanks!

I’ve been scouring your blog for weeks now looking at how to handle water vapor and condensation in my soon to be garage. I know to use Tyvek or similar between the metal siding and purlins, my question is in regards to the roof. I plan to insulate the ceiling (most likely blown in) in the next year or two, so would a good heavy plastic (6 mil) between the roof metal and purlins work for my moisture barrier rather than the foil bubble insulation?  Since I’ll have a finished/insulated ceiling and a well vented attic I was hoping to skip the insulative properties of the foil bubble and go straight plastic. Will that work in my case?  Or would this even be a good application for the felt backed roof metal?  I’ll also lay a well sealed plastic barrier under my slab. Thanks for all of your help via previous posts, just couldn’t find anything about using plastic under roofing.  I’m trying to build this garage the right way, but also keeping budget in mind. Thanks again!”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Technology is great, when it works. Thank you for the heads up on the error message, our IT team is working on a fix now.

Plastic (visqueen) under your roof steel will not solve the condensation challenges. Instead you will have condensation on the underside of the visqueen. (to read up on the history of Visqueen and why not to use it under wall steel: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/07/moisture-barrier/)  In order to minimize (or ideally eliminate) potential condensation it requires airflow (vented eaves and ridge being the best combination) as well as a thermal break. While a reflective radiant barrier (aka – foil bubble, which is NOT insulation no matter how hard someone tries to convince you) will do the job as long as it has properly sealed overlaps and will be very cost effective, if it was my own building I would be looking at felt backed roof steel (Condenstop or Dripstop) due to the ease of installation.

For more information on Condenstop: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/07/condenstop/.

Make sure to order trusses with raised heels, so you get the full attic insulation thickness across the entire ceiling. Take desired R value, divide by three and add two to get the height of the truss heels.

 

3M VHB Tape

3M™ VHB™ Tape

Reader WILLIAM in DYER writes:

“I’ve been researching pole buildings, and the weak point for putting one up seems to be the screws and washers.  Have you looked into using 3M™ VHB™ tape instead of screws and fasteners for attaching the metal exterior sheeting? What are the pros/cons of tape only? Thanks.”

Personally the only way the screws holding the steel roofing and siding on would be the weak point would be if the wrong product is being used, or the right product is being improperly installed.

Here is the scoop on VHB™ tape straight from 3M™:

Details

  • Fast and easy-to-use permanent bonding method provides high strength and long-term durability
  • Virtually invisible fastening keeps surfaces smooth
  • Can replace mechanical fasteners (rivets, welding, screws) or liquid adhesives
  • Black, 0.045 in (1.1 mm), modified acrylic adhesive and very conformable acrylic foam core bonds to a wide variety of substrates including powder coated paints and irregular surfaces
  • Eliminate drilling, grinding, refinishing, screwing, welding and clean-up
  • Creates a permanent seal against water, moisture and more by offering better gap filling capabilities
  • Pressure sensitive adhesive bonds on contact to provide immediate handling strength
  • Allows the use of thinner, lighter weight and dissimilar materials

 

Dream, Design, Deliver with our 3M™ VHB™ Tape 5952. It is a black, 0.045 in (1.1 mm) modified acrylic adhesive with a very conformable, foam core. It can replace rivets, welds and screws. The fast and easy to use permanent bonding method provides high strength and long-term durability. It offers design flexibility with its viscoelasticity and powerful ability to bond to a variety of surfaces.

Convenience Meets Extreme Bonding Power 
Our 3M™ VHB™ Tape consists of a durable acrylic adhesive with viscoelastic properties. This provides an extraordinarily strong double sided foam tape that adheres to a broad range of substrates, including aluminum, stainless steel, galvanized steel, composites, plastics, acrylic, polycarbonate, ABS and painted or sealed wood and concrete. Our bonding tapes provide excellent shear strength, conformability, surface adhesion and temperature resistance. They are commonly used in applications across a variety of markets including transportation, appliance, electronics, construction, sign and display and general industrial. Reliably bonds a variety of materials with strength and speed for permanent applications. 

Dream, Design, Deliver with the 5952 Family of 3M™ VHB™ Tapes 
The 5952 family of 3M™ VHB™ Tapes utilizes modified acrylic adhesive on both sides of a very conformable, adhesive foam core. The combination of strength, conformability and adhesion makes this family one of the most capable and well-rounded 3M™ VHB™ Tapes. It is specifically designed for good adhesion to high, medium and lower surface energy plastics and paints, metals and glass. Applications for this tape include bonding and sealing polycarbonate lens over LCD, signage and windows to post-painted control panels. 

An Unconventional Foam Tape 
We invented 3M™ VHB™ Tapes in 1980 as the first of their kind. These unique tapes combine conformability with a strong, permanent bond. The result is a family of extraordinarily strong tapes that adhere to a broad range of substrates. 3M™ VHB™ Tape is a proven alternative to screws, rivets, welds and other forms of mechanical fasteners. Skyscrapers, cell phones, electronic highway signs, refrigerators, architectural windows and more all rely on this specialty bonding tape for one or more steps in the assembly, mounting, fastening and sealing process. This trusted and reliable tape offers a consistent bond, outstanding durability and excellent solvent and moisture resistance. 3M stands by all of its products and is there to provide you with design guidance and technical support when you need it. 

Proven Reliability from 3M™ VHB™ Tapes 
3M™ VHB™ Tape offers a durable bond in a way that mechanical fasteners can’t. This tape enhances the appearance of finished goods by eliminating rivets and screws while providing immediate handling strength. In most cases, fastening with 3M™ VHB™ Tape is a quicker process than drilling, fastening, or using liquid adhesive. Our versatile line of tapes can be used indoors or outdoors in a variety of applications, including window, door and sign assembly, electronics, construction and countless other industrial applications. Chemically resistant as well as UV and temperature stable, 3M™ VHB™ Tape can withstand the heat of Dubai to the cold of Canada. The unique acrylic chemistry is extremely durable and resistant to change over time, making this a long-lasting and powerful tape you can trust. 

Bringing Better Ideas to the Surface through Science and Innovation 
In our 3M Industrial Adhesives and Tapes Division, we apply the science of adhesion to deliver innovative solutions that improve the design and manufacturing processes of companies around the world. In the end, our technologies help customers like you deliver competitive products to the market faster and more efficiently. 

Mike the Pole Barn Guru comments:

Why it might not be the best choice….

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA

In order to utilize it with the steel panels, it would need to be tested for shear strength by an independent engineer. It would preclude the use of Building Wrap (like Tyvek) in walls, as well as radiant reflective barriers or Dripstop/Condenstop in roofs.

While it sounds like an excellent product, the cost along may prove prohibitive, as the lowest price I am seeing is somewhere around 70 cents per lineal foot, making it around 10 times as expensive as the diaphragm screws we provide and even more expensive than the smaller diameter lesser quality fasteners used by most post frame suppliers and builders.


 

Integral Condensation Control

Integral Condensation Control (I.C.C.) products are manufactured and distributed with trade names such as Condenstop (which I have written about previously: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/07/condenstop/) and Dripstop.

Here are a few words on Dripstop, recorded live at the NFBA Expo held recently in Nashville, Tennessee:

I.C.C. provides drip prevention which is integral to steel roofing and is aimed at saving installation time and labor. I.C.C. is comprised of a polyester fabric with an adhesive glue layer which allows it to be adhered to the washcoat (the underside) of steel roofing panels. The fabric is attached to the sheet metal as it is being unwrapped from the coil and is roll formed with the panel, allowing the steel roofing to arrive on the jobsite ready for immediate installation.

Steel roofing with I.C.C. addresses drip prevention in a new way. By providing a wicking material to retain the moisture, condensation is no longer the enemy. This product works with the natural condensation cycle to prevent dripping and is far more durable than barriers. No additional products or inventory are necessary, and because I.C.C. is factory-applied, no additional jobsite labor is required. No need to worry about dragging around rolls of reflective or metal building insulation, just install the roof and get the job done.

To better understand how this product works, we must first discuss why condensation and dripping happen in the first place. When atmospheric conditions reach the dew point, air contains the maximum amount of moisture it can retain at its temperature. This is known as 100% relative humidity. Since cool air is unable to retain as much moisture as warm air, any drop in temperature from contact with a cooler surface essentially “wrings” the moisture out of the air. This is why fogging (condensation) is caused by the warm, moist air in our breath hitting a colder pane of glass. As the glass cools the warm, moist air contacting it, the moisture in our breath is “wrung” out.

As noted above, where warm air meets cool surfaces, the moisture in this air will often condense to the surface and form droplets. When exterior air cools steel cladding below the building’s interior temperature, the steel can provide this surface. Once condensation begins to take place, the droplets formed will combine as they contact one another, continuing to do so until they are too large to be supported by the liquid’s surface tension. At this point, dripping will occur, essentially raining on the structure’s contents.

Because some people are unaware of this process, many steel roofed post frame building owners are convinced all metal roofing leaks – a make believe ‘fact’ which can deter them from an otherwise superior product as well as cause headaches for both builders and post frame building kit package suppliers. In the past, the solution to this has been to provide a thermal break between the structure’s interior and the steel roofing to isolate the warm moist air inside the building from the underside of the cooler roof steel.

In theory, this is an excellent idea. In practice, it requires additional inventory and a large amount of additional labor. Meanwhile, the steel roofing waits to be installed. These problems are compounded by the fact barrier products are generally hard to handle and install in even mildly inclement weather.

Steel roofing with I.C.C. eliminates these delays, reduces inventory and simplifies construction without sacrificing drip-preventing performance.

The core of I.C.C. is a polyester fleece. When this material is adhered to steel panels, it greatly increases the surface area from moisture to cling to after condensing. The fleece provides hundreds of fibers per square inch for droplets to stick to, thereby greatly increasing the “grip” they have on the interior of the cladding. Because of this, a twelve foot panel can retain over half a gallon of condensed moisture.

 Steel roofing with I.C.C. is well suited for a wide variety of applications. Similar products have been available for over 15 years in Europe and have provided successful service on every continent and in nearly every climate in countless applications. Steel roofing with I.C.C. is well suited for self-storage, animal confinement, garages, grain storage, car ports, barns, aircraft hangars, stadiums and literally any other place where condensation and drip prevention are of concern.

The I.C.C. fabric requires contact with air to function properly, therefore it is not recommended for closed-decking applications. Also, it is not meant to function as insulation due to its low R-value.

In closed wall applications, any edges exposed to the exterior of a structure (i.e. the eaves), should be sealed to prevent moisture from seeping into the structure through the fabric.

The additional thickness of the I.C.C. fabric changes the roll-forming characteristics of steel panels, giving panels a slight “barrel-roll”. This effect is limited to an inch of curl up at the sides when the panel lays color up on a flat surface and provides no additional challenges for installation. Another effect is the reduction of smoothness at all bends in the panel. Again, this has no effect on performance of either panel or fabric. The barrel-roll is imperceptible after installation and the bend texture is indiscernible at distances greater than an arm’s length.

Pole Barn Savings Part II

Eight Nifty Tricks to Save Money When Building a Pole Barn (reprised)

This is Part II of a two part series on pole barn savings through material and feature choices. Bret Buelo of Wick Buildings® wrote an article by this title last year, some of the items I agree with, some not so much. This is my “take” on his points. If you missed the first part – back up one day and read the first 4 points. To continue…

Hanger Sliding Door“5. Install a sliding door. They’re less costly than overhead garage doors or hydraulic doors for equipment access doors that you don’t use frequently.

And today’s slide doors, even large ones, are much easier to open and close than your Dad’s old slide door due to improvements in tracks, trolleys, materials and construction techniques.”

While sliding door systems have improved immensely, for most people the lack of convenience and security does not outweigh the savings. For horse barns or purely agricultural structures, they might very well be the best solution. As for cost, relatively small sized overhead doors can actually be less expensive than sliding doors. Overhead doors can also be provided as insulated and electric operators are reasonably added. For those in snow country, having to shovel the snow away for those frozen door tracks on a sliding door is still an obstacle, while an overhead door rolls right up the tracks.

“6. Use DripStop for condensation control. To prevent condensation from forming or dripping on high-end equipment, purchase DripStop.

It’s not an insulation, yet it effectively controls condensation in non-insulated buildings. It works well for mini warehouses, animal confinement or any cold-storage building in which you wish to deter moisture from dripping on your stuff.

DripStop can potentially save you thousands of dollars in comparison to using ceiling insulation.”

Steel roofing is prone to issues involving condensation. DripStop is not going to be as cost effective (from a material only standpoint) as reflective insulation: (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2011/11/reflective-insulation/).

Where the savings is going to come from is in labor, read more about this here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2014/07/condenstop/

“7. Choose an interior liner system over a drywall finish. A good tip for many buildings; adding a steel flushwall liner system interior to your building can be much less expensive than finishing your building with drywall.

You’ll get a durable interior without all the hassle of hanging and finishing drywall.”

I am going to disagree with this design solution entirely. Ever try to hang a cabinet or a shelf on walls with a steel liner? And steel liner ceilings have some of their own issues: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2013/08/steel-liner-panels/

As to costs, I checked today’s prices at The Home Depot® where ½” USG Sheetrock® is 27 cents per square foot. Steel liner panels 95 cents per square foot. I’d really like to see where the savings is in his argument.

“8. Weigh your options on soundproofing materials. Some people will install a sound-absorbing ceiling material, but that isn’t always the most cost-effective option to reduce noise.

A perforated steel liner with insulation behind it can be a better way to reduce noise, especially in commercial and shop environments.”

From over 16,000 buildings of experience, sound-absorption is way down the list of priorities. In only a single case have I been involved in a project with perforated steel liner panels. It happened to have been specified by an architect who didn’t know better (most possibly it was a result of being influenced by a particular builder who pushed the product). It was to be installed over 7/16” OSB, in a situation which would often result in the liner panels being hosed down with water…..which would go through the perforations…..getting the OSB wet. Anyone other than me seeing potential problems with this as a design solution?

In a future article – I’ll highlight some of my own pole barn savings “tricks” and advice for a new post frame building. Stay tuned!