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Why Post Frame Columns Need Adequate Footings

Why Post-Frame Columns Need Adequate Footings

Reader STEVE in GRANTS PASS writes:

“Dear Pole Barn Guru, height of the post for my RV pole barn have moved. What is the best way to raise and support the header so that I can replace and or place concrete footings with Simpsons?

Hopefully these are better pics.

If I use the furthest to the left post as a baseline for height (base on a laser level) here are the variances from left to right.

#1:   base height 

#2:   +2.5″

#3:   +4.375″

#4:   -1.825″

#5:   +4.125

Based on everything I’ve seen with this property the builder did not sink these into concrete or use any type of Simpson column anchors.

How would you go about fixing this mess?”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru writes:

Thank you for your photos. You certainly have a mess going on here. Besides columns having (or maybe they were never correct to begin with) not been provided with adequate (or maybe no) footings, columns also appear to be greatly undersized.

Please keep in mind, these suggestions are not to be construed as an engineered repair. You should ideally engage services of a Registered Professional Engineer to confirm adequacy as well as to determine what other portions of your building may need upgrades or repairs.

To fix this you will need an all-terrain lift, a mini excavator, some 2×6 for bracing, as well as some UC-4B pressure preservative treated 2x lumber.

Using excavator, dig out on all four sides of an offending column, down to base. Add full length UC-4B treated scabs vertically from bottom of column to header using (2) two 10d common hot dipped galvanized nails every (6) six inches on all four sides. If your existing columns are 6×6, you will need (2) 2×6 and (2) 2×10 or (4) 2×8. Basically, you are boxing in each column. From outside (exterior) of building lift underneath header at each side of column until desired point is reached. Brace column at top of hole, by placing a 2×6 on inside and outside of column (running length of building) directly in contact with firm ground and nail with (4) four 16d duplex nails.

Repeat on balance of columns. On any column being above your zero point, you will need to dig out below the column.

Once above is completed for all four columns, have a pre-mix concrete truck deliver enough concrete to completely fill holes up to level of bracing. Give concrete a week to reach strength and remove braces.

It will not be fun or easy but will give your desired result.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn holes, Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Structure, Footings, Rebuilding Structures, Budget, Professional Engineer, Columns and tagged , , , , on by .

Repairing Rotted Lester Building Poles

Repairing Rotted Lester Building Poles

Reader KEVIN in OELWEIN writes:

“I own a Lester’s (Company name) pole barn machine storage shed on my farm that was built in the late 1970’s. It needs new metal put on the roof. It is 50′ x 80′ with a concrete floor. Some of the poles are rotting just below the soil surface. About 15% of them. So those poles would need to be replaced top to bottom, or perhaps just the bottoms, before doing any other work on the shed. Are there ways for me to replace or repair these rotted pole bottoms on a standing building? I cannot find any contractors who will do the work. Thank you.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru says:

Sadly, prior to about mid-1980’s, many treatment plants would do what was known as “.60 or refusal” for CCA pressure preservative treating. This resulted in difficult to treat timbers (such as Douglas-Fir) being basically painted green with preservative chemicals, as only minimal penetration would occur. Even with this, many have survived adequately in service for decades.

Provided column holes were not backfilled with pre-mix concrete (they probably were not), you could temporarily support any given deteriorated column above grade, then cut off the column just above top of concrete slab. From outside, excavate around offending column and remove it. Coat cutoff column bottom end with a waterproof sealant, such as an asphalt emulsion. Place a Sturdi-Wall Plus® wet set bracket on bottom of cutoff upper portion of the column. Clean all loose dirt from bottom of excavation. Use an appropriately sized Sonotube® extending down to at least below frost-line and backfill tube with premix concrete. Backfill around exterior of tube with compactable fill, compacting to at least 95%, no less often than every six inches.

For a rough idea of required Sonotube® diameter take roof snow and dead loads (should be 30 psf or less) x 50′ span divided by 2 x post spacing (most agricultural Lester Buildings are posts every 10′) to calculate weight to be supported.

Example: 30psf x 50’/2 x 10′ = 7500#

Most soils will support 2000 psf, so 7500# / 2000# = 3.75 square feet (required area of sonotube).

A 24″ sonotube has an area of 3.14 sft, 28″ would give you 4.27 sft.

A Registered Professional Engineer should be retained to verify adequacy of soil bearing capacity, as well as diameter of tube.

For extended reading on Sturdi-Wall Plus® brackets: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/05/sturdi-wall-plus-concrete-brackets/


And some thoughts about Sonotubes®: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/11/sonotube/

This entry was posted in Pole Barn holes, Uncategorized, Pole Building How To Guides, Concrete, Professional Engineer, Columns and tagged , , , , on by .

Why Post Frame Columns Need Adequate Footings

Why Post-Frame Columns Need Adequate Footings

Reader STEVE in GRANTS PASS writes:

“Dear Pole Barn Guru, height of the post for my RV pole barn have moved. What is the best way to raise and support the header so that I can replace and or place concrete footings with Simpsons?

Hopefully these are better pics.

If I use the furthest to the left post as a baseline for height (base on a laser level) here are the variances from left to right.

#1:   base height 

#2:   +2.5″

#3:   +4.375″

#4:   -1.825″

#5:   +4.125

Based on everything I’ve seen with this property the builder did not sink these into concrete or use any type of Simpson column anchors.

How would you go about fixing this mess?”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru writes:

Thank you for your photos. You certainly have a mess going on here. Besides columns having (or maybe they were never correct to begin with) not been provided with adequate (or maybe no) footings, columns also appear to be greatly undersized.

Please keep in mind, these suggestions are not to be construed as an engineered repair. You should ideally engage services of a Registered Professional Engineer to confirm adequacy as well as to determine what other portions of your building may need upgrades or repairs.

To fix this you will need an all-terrain lift, a mini excavator, some 2×6 for bracing, as well as some UC-4B pressure preservative treated 2x lumber.

Using excavator, dig out on all four sides of an offending column, down to base. Add full length UC-4B treated scabs vertically from bottom of column to header using (2) two 10d common hot dipped galvanized nails every (6) six inches on all four sides. If your existing columns are 6×6, you will need (2) 2×6 and (2) 2×10 or (4) 2×8. Basically, you are boxing in each column. From outside (exterior) of building lift underneath header at each side of column until desired point is reached. Brace column at top of hole, by placing a 2×6 on inside and outside of column (running length of building) directly in contact with firm ground and nail with (4) four 16d duplex nails.

Repeat on balance of columns. On any column being above your zero point, you will need to dig out below the column.

Once above is completed for all four columns, have a pre-mix concrete truck deliver enough concrete to completely fill holes up to level of bracing. Give concrete a week to reach strength and remove braces.

It will not be fun or easy but will give your desired result.

This entry was posted in Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Structure, Footings, Rebuilding Structures, Budget, Professional Engineer, Columns, Pole Barn holes and tagged , , , , on by .

Stucco for My Post Frame Home

Stucco For My Post Frame Home

Reader SHAWN in WASHINGTON writes:

“I’m about to build a 110’x 50′ pole frame house using sono tube piers and wet set brackets. I am wanting to use the 1 coat (lighter weight) stucco on full exterior my question/ concern is what options do Ii have for my grade board contacting earth and also the transition of bottom of stucco on face of grade board? I have so much money in my land that I was really trying to save by not pouring a footer. Galvanized metal grade board? Wrap bottom and face of grade board with a custom j metal trim? Want it to be appealing to the eye with stucco stopping a few inches above ground level and just a few inches of grade board showing. Just want my grade board to last longer than 30-40 years since I will have roughly $600,000 in my house. My initial house design, but have changed it to stucco only with no rock more like other photo.”


Mike the Pole Barn Guru says:

Of concern with your use of stucco, in general, is limiting wall deflection to L/360. This can be accomplished, however it will often require larger dimension and/or higher graded wall columns (often glulaminated). Wall girts will need to be bookshelf style. In order to confirm deflection limits are indeed adequate, your post frame home’s structural plans should only be designed by a Registered Professional Engineer. Failure to meet this high degree of frame stiffness will result in failure of your stucco.

Successful stucco installation obviously requires a solid substrate (typically OSB or plywood). Either of these must be no closer to grade than six inches, unless properly pressure preservative treated (or a material otherwise impervious to decay). You might want to consider sheathing lower four feet of your wall with Foundation Rated (FDN) CDX plywood or cement board, so you can run it even down to grade, if desired.

Your grade board (splash plank) can be special ordered as UC-4B pressure treated. This level of treatment is good in the ground for longer than anyone alive on our planet to witness it failing. Our clients, who have been using stucco, have merely finished the bottom of it with a weep screed and called it a day. In all reality, no one except you is ever going to look at or notice how this is detailed.

This entry was posted in Alternate Siding, Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Homes, Lumber, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure and tagged , , , , , , , , on by .

Inspecting an Existing Barndominium

Inspecting an Existing Barndominium

Reader STEPHANIE in BATES CITY writes:

“We are in the process of buying an existing barndo and will be finishing it out with additional living space. The barndo was built by the current owner, along with his dad, 13 years ago.my question comes from a discovery during inspection on Monday. The research I have done is leading me to believe this issue is not an issue but i want to make certain before we are out of inspection period. The inspector was at first concerned that the pole beams were just sunk into the ground without footers. However, the current owner, who is also the individual who built the structure, came out to answer questions for us. He said he sunk the beams into concrete about 4 feet down. Then there is about a foot or so of “treated” beam in contact with the soil. He assured us the beam was treated specifically to be in contact with the soil. I will include photos following this message. In my research I have learned there is a particular material wrap that can be put around the exposed beams so maybe this is something we can consider down the road if we feel it is better or necessary. My question for you, if you don’t mind…..does this appear to be normal/standard practice for the sunken beams/footers? Do we have any reason to be concerned?”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru says:

 

Most post frame buildings/barndominiums are constructed with pressure preservative treated columns embedded in ground (like what you are seeing). Provided they have been properly treated to UC-4B standards, they should outlive anyone alive on our planet today (for extended reading please see https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/09/pressure-treated-post-frame-building-poles-rot/). Polesaver sleeves™ (https://advancedpostsolutions.com/post-solutions) might also help to alleviate some of your concerns.

If this building was built to engineer sealed site specific plans, then you should feel fairly confident of its structural integrity, if not, I would recommend engaging an Registered Professional Engineer’s services to do a physical inspection to verify structural adequacy and make any recommended repairs/upgrades if needed.

 
This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Barndominium, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Structure, Footings, Columns, Pole Barn Homes and tagged , , , , , , on by .

How to Properly Design a Barndominium Wood Floor Over a Crawl Space

How To Properly Design a Barndominium Wood Floor Over a Crawl Space

Reader JERRY in HAWESVILLE writes:

“If one were to build a post frame home on a crawlspace and the floor joists were sitting on a 3 ply 2×10 center beam on post spaced 8-10 feet apart, how does one support the joists at the outer walls? Do you need another 3 ply beam on each side and how would you attach those to your posts? If you could show a diagram, that would be great. Thanks.”

Well Jerry, a simple answer is yes, you need to support floor joists at the exterior wall. Beyond this things begin to get more complex and should only be done with a Registered Professional Engineer being involved.

Let’s begin with your interior floor beams, we will check for a beam spanning 10′:

fb: bending stress from live/dead loads
P = (D + L) = 10 psf + 40 psf = 50 psf
W = 50 psf * 8′ / 12 in./ft. = 33.333 pli (8′ is tributary area being carried by 3 – 2×10 #2 SYP members)
M = (33.333 pli * 120″2) / 8 = 60000 in.lbs
S = b * d2 / 6 = 3 * 1.5″ * 9.25″2 / 6 = 64.17 in.3
fb = M / S = 60000 in.lbs / 64.17 in.3 = 934.99 psi
934.99 ≤ 800 x 1.15 (Increase for repetitive members) so over stressed in bending by 1.6%

Not a very practical design solution.

If beam span is reduced to 8′, then allowable tributary area could be increased to 12′ (e.g. 6′ on either side).

Moral is your proposed 3 ply 2×10 beam is probably not a best solution.

Beams also need to be checked to meet Code required deflection limitations of  l/360 where “l” is the span of beam between supports. In this instance, bending will dictate design.

Hopefully this alone shows a fully engineered solution is best, as an engineer will confirm all needed grades and dimensions, as well as best connection methods. He or she will also design column footings to be adequate in diameter to properly distribute added weight (both live and dead loads) being added due to your floor system.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Structure, Professional Engineer, Columns, Pole Barn Homes, Post Frame Home, Barndominium, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Shouse, Pole Barn Planning and tagged , , , , , on by .

Buildings Designed/Built to Code

Designed / Built to Code

Sounds pretty impressive to think you are going to be investing in a new building designed and/or built to “Code”.

Right?

Well – maybe not so much. To begin with “Code” happens to be bare minimum requirements to adequately protect public health, safety and welfare. This does not mean a structure built to “Code” will withstand all possible circumstances. As an example, residential structures (R-3) are designed so as there is a 2% probability of their design loads being exceeded in any given calendar year!

So, how does a consumer best protect their interests?

BE AN INFORMED BUYER

Whether investing in a complete building kit, or having a builder provide materials as well as erection labor – if you receive a proposal stating only “to Code” or not mentioning “Code” at all…..

RUN

All proposals and agreements for buildings should mention what Code and Code version is being used. IRC (International Residential Code) and IBC (International Building Code) do have some differences between them. Every three years there is a new Code version published. Each version has latest updated changes due to testing, research and new products being introduced. Your new building should either match your jurisdiction’s adopted Code version or (if no structural permits are required), most recent version.

ENGINEERING

Unless you are building within prescriptive ‘cook book’ restrictions of a Code, I am a firm believer of buildings being fully engineered. Not just engineered trusses (as an example) but every component and connection being checked and verified by a Registered Professional Engineer specific to your building’s features on your site. This is for everyone’s protection (not just yours, but also your provider and any hired builder).

WHAT TO LOOK FOR ON PROPOSALS AND AGREEMENTS

Beyond applicable Code version, there are other factors you should have included:

Ground Snow Load (Pg) in areas where it snows. Ground snow load is not the same as roof snow load, but is important as it affects drift zones on each side of roof ridges. In these areas, roof purlins often must be closer together, larger dimension or higher graded material to compensate for drifting.

Flat Roof Snow Load (Pf) is usually calculated from Pg and incorporates factors such as Occupancy (low risk buildings get a 20% reduction), wind exposure (an exposed building has snow blow off, a protected site has snow sit) and temperature (heated or unheated and well or poorly insulated). Some jurisdictions mandate a minimum Pf, ignoring applicable laws of physics.

No snow? Then Lr applies, rather than Pf. Lr is a reduced uniformly distributed roof live load ranging from a minimum of 12 to a maximum of 20 psf (pounds per square foot), depending upon the area being carried by a given member.

Design Wind Speed in either V (basic design wind speed, sometimes expressed as Vult) or Vasd, in mph (miles per hour). These values are directly correlated as Vasd equals V multiplied by square root of 0.6.

Wind Exposure – rarely mentioned and extremely important. Most buildings will be on Exposure C sites, meaning they must resist a 20% greater wind force than a fully protected Exposure B site. Become more knowledgeable by reading here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/03/wind-exposure-confusion/

If wind exposure is not delineated on a proposal or agreement, it is not a good sign.

Allowable Foundation Pressure – most people are not interested in having their buildings settle. This value relates to your site’s soil being able to support a given value per square foot of building weight INCLUDING roof and floor live (or snow) and dead (permanent) loads. Keeping it simple, easier to dig equals lower values.  In an ideal world, a geotechnical engineer has tested your site’s soils and can provide an exact measure of soil strength in his or her report. Many providers assume a value of 3000 psf, this would exclude soils including any silts or clays and using this as a value could compromise structural integrity.

Seismic Zone: for single story wood or steel frame structures with low or no snow and more than just bare minimum design wind forces, seismic forces will not dictate structural design. However, they should be checked.

If you are negotiating with a provider or builder who is not clearly stating all of these factors, you are very well paying hard earned money for something you are not getting.

Contact your local jurisdiction so you are aware of what Code minimum requirements are. Ask your provider or builder for any additional investment to upgrade to a greater roof load and/or design wind speed – in most cases it is negligible and it allows you to make informed choices as to risk/reward.

This entry was posted in Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Design, Building Department, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure and tagged , , , , , , , , on by .

Repurpose – From Pole Barn to Barndominium

Reader LAUREN in THORNVILLE has an existing pole barn and writes:

“Hello! We have an existing 40×64 post frame construction pole barn that is 16′ high at the eaves/trusses and 20′ total height. It has siding and half of the space has 6 inch poured concrete. We would like to turn this into a one and a half story home. The one and a half would go on the part that does not have poured concrete. How far down would we have to dig to make that happen? I assume more than 2 ft to get to the 18 ft two story height  just to take into account the height of additional concrete pouring etc. I also wonder if half it already has poured concrete if it’s still possible to do water lines and electric in that area and then put additional flooring on top of the concrete so the space in between is running the necessary lines? we will not be doing this ourselves we will be hiring contractors but wanted to discuss the possibilities of what we can do with the structure. This is an agricultural pole barn, so do we need something different to make it into a habitable home since the wood poles etc are probably different than home grade? I appreciate your answers to these questions as well as any other advice or opinions that I did not think of that you can offer.”


Before you get overly deep into this, I would recommend you hire a Registered Professional Engineer to do a thorough evaluation of your existing building and give an opinion as to structural upgrades necessary in order to bring it into compliance with R-3 (residential) occupancy. This, alone, will likely curb your enthusiasm for trying to repurpose your structure. While either agricultural or residential columns should be pressure preservative treated to a minimum UC-4B specification, this is sadly not always what has been used. You are most likely to find your existing columns (wood poles) are not large enough, in dimension to safely support a residential use and their concrete footings are inadequate. In order to get to an adequate two story height (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/05/how-tall-should-my-eave-height-be-for-two-stories/) you would be not only doing a lot of digging, but also having to provide a continuous foundation of some sort between columns. In your existing slab area, should you need to run under slab utilities, it would probably be least expensive to rent a concrete saw – cut slots in slab and fill back in.

My recommendation is to build a brand new fully engineered post frame barndominium to best fit your family’s wants and needs.

This entry was posted in Barndominium, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Planning, Concrete, Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Homes and tagged , , , , , on by .

Why Self Engineering is Risky

Reader MICHAEL in EAGLE POINT writes:

“I want to span 18 feet on a shed roof with any pitch necessary should I nail two 2x 6 rafters together and place this in the center and use 9 foot 2×6 purlins. The shed will be 18 X 18. Do I need to nail two 2×6 together for the two outside rafters?

All spans are clear span no center post The high side of shed is up against an existing building the low side will be new post and beam or posts with the rafters bolted to the post

This is a shed with only two walls. The existing high side as explained and the new post and beam side as the low side The two other sides will be open to drive under.

I plan on three or four posts on the low side depending on whether I use beams post to post underneath the rafters Or Bolt the rafters to either side of the post and eliminate the beams.

Since I’m using 2 x 6 purlins between the rafters I wondered if I could span the 18 foot length using two 2 by sixes (nailed together )For rafters. Since I’m using purlins I thought I could only have the rafters at each end and one in the center keeping in mind it is only a metal roof.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:
This sort of armchair ‘engineering’ is far too typical of what I read in social media groups.  When designs such as what is proposed are utilized, and buildings fail, folks are quick to point fingers as pole buildings being responsible, rather than lack of proper engineering design being our true culprit.

Please confirm this with your Registered Professional Engineer who will be sealing your building plans. Most of Oregon (your part included) has a minimum roof live load of 25 psf (pounds per square foot).  For sake of discussion, we will use 3 columns spaced nine foot on center along low and high sides and a five psf dead load (just in case someone decides to add plywood or OSB under a reroof some day).

Moment force = (25 + 5) psf x (9′ distance to next rafter / 2 [1/2 distance to next rafter] x 12″) x 18’^2 [ span of rafter] / ( 8 x 1.15 [Cd = duration of load for wood]) = 57,052.17 in-lbs

57,052.17 / (2 x 31.6406 [Section Modulus of a 2×12]) = 901.57 Fb [fiberstress in bending] required

2×12 #2 DougFir has a Fb of 900, so given bearing width at each end would most likely be approved by your engineer.

For rafters I would recommend a 2 ply 2×12 #2 DougFir on each end, and at center use two rafters on each side of the column. Connection at ends must be capable of withstanding 1215# so a single bolt will be nowhere near adequate (again, your engineer will properly design and detail this connection). Your thought of nailing two 2×6 together would be woefully inadequate (and would be over 300% over stressed probably failing during construction).

Hiring a Registered Professional Engineer is not an expense, it is an investment.

This entry was posted in Building Department, Pole Barn Planning, Sheds, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , , , , , , , on by .

Installing Steel Liner Panels in an Existing Pole Barn

Installing Steel Liner Panels in an Existing Pole Barn

Reader JASON in WHITEHOUSE STATION writes:

“ Hello! I have a post frame 30X40 Pole Barn that was built prior to me owning the house. Currently, the shop is not insulated. I would really like to insulate it, as it’s quite unbearable in the summer and winter. The building has soffit vents, a ridge vent, and two gable vents. With the way the building is set up with all that ventilation (possibly too much?), is putting in a ceiling with insulation on top my best bet? I know there are many options when it comes to insulation, but I am trying to determine what is best for my application. I am leaning towards 6 mil poly on the bottom side of the truss, ceiling liner panel over that with blown in insulation on top. My truss is 8′ on center. Is there a recommended length of panel I should use? Thank you for your help with this. I’m sorry if I asked too many questions.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Ceiling Loaded TrussesProvided your building has roof trusses designed to adequately support a ceiling load, your best bet will be to blow in insulation above a flat level ceiling. If you do not have original truss drawings available to determine if they have a bottom chord dead load (BCDL) of three or more, then you will need to find the manufacturer’s stamp placed on truss bottom chords and contact them with your site address. With this information they should be able to pull up records and give you a yes or no. If you are yet unable to make this determination, a Registered Professional Engineer should be retained to evaluate your trusses and advise as to if they are appropriate to carry a ceiling and if not, what upgrades will be required.

If your building does not have some sort of thermal break between roof framing and roof steel (a radiant reflective barrier, sheathing, etc.) you should have two inches of closed cell spray foam applied to the underside of roof steel, or else you will have condensation issues (even with the ventilation). With trusses every eight feet (again provided trusses can carry ceiling weight), I would add ceiling joists between truss bottom chords every four feet and run 30 foot long (verify from actual field measurements) steel panels from wall to wall.

You do not have too much ventilation – and be careful not to block off airflow at eaves. You can omit poly between liner panels and ceiling framing.

This entry was posted in Building Interior, Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Planning, Ventilation and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Gothic Arch, Steel Board and Batten, and Engineering Services

This Monday the Pole Barn Guru discusses Gothic arches, steel board and batten, and engineering services.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am going to build a 24×36 barn and have become infatuated with the Gothic arch roof line from looking at existing arch roofed barns in my area (one is amazing…built in 1911). Any thoughts on using laminated arches in conjunction with a pole barn? The walls would be 10′ tall with the arch reaching to 28′ tall. If the end poles (8′ spacing) were extended to reach the arch, they would need to be 25′ tall. Thanks. DUSTIN in LLOYDMINSTER

DEAR DUSTIN: My first experience with gothic arches were those built in the 1970’s by Red Waggoner in North Idaho. He used Construction Adhesive to glue 2x4s into arches (of course with no engineering). In West Central Minnesota, there are many of them – none of recent construction. In order to keep arch bases from spreading, they would need to be anchored directly to a concrete foundation, piers or somehow attached to a wall-to-wall floor. While they look neat, I am doubtful they would be a viable design solution combined with post frame.

 

Affordable horse barnDEAR POLE BARN GURU: Is steel board and batten an option for pole barn construction? BRITTANY in MILLRY

DEAR BRITTANY: Steel board and batten siding is an option for post frame construction. It will be significantly more expensive than standard through screwed steel and should be installed only over a solid substrate such as 5/8″ CDX plywood.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hi there, I am developing a plan for a 1.5 story small cabin and would like to build with a pole structure, with poles on cement pads or perma-columns and a wooden raised floor. I have been thoroughly enjoying your blog posts and thought I would write to ask about your services. I’m not looking for a kit or premade plans but could use some engineering guidance based on the basic design that I’ve put together for an ~18×20 structure. Do you guys offer that kind of service, with hourly rates or otherwise?

Thanks and I hope to hear from you soon! BEN in OAKLAND

DEAR BEN: Thank you very much for your kind words. Due to liability issues we are unable to offer this sort of service. You might try reaching out to one of our independent third-party engineers John Raby (john@raby-assoc.com) to determine if he would have an interest in assisting you.

 

This entry was posted in Alternate Siding, Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning, Steel Roofing & Siding and tagged , , , , on by .

Post Frame Standards or Extras?

On Facebook I am a member of a discussion group for Pole and Post frame building professionals only. Recently one of our group members posed a question, “What are the extras you do to set yourself apart”?

It was only then I realized there are some significant differences between a Hansen Pole Building and other alternative suppliers:

Most important is every Hansen Pole Building is fully engineered (not just engineered trusses) specifically to match our client’s building features (all doors and windows placed) and individual jobsite conditions (snow, wind, wind exposure, seismic loads). Not only are building plans sealed and signed by a Registered Professional Engineer, but also a complete set of verifying calculations is provided. This ensures to our client his or her new structure is designed to withstand this given set of load conditions and will be structurally sufficient. A few thoughts on non-engineered buildings here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/10/non-engineered-building/.

Entry doors are important as they are one of very few moving parts on a post frame building. Ideally you want your building to be secure – without a threat of it being kicked in by a miscreant due to having wooden jambs.  All Hansen Pole Buildings entry doors are insulated steel doors with steel jambs and are factory finish painted. These are sturdy enough to keep honest people honest and they will not have to be painted (or repainted), unlike most wood jamb doors. Why your entry door is important: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/09/pole-building-door-safety/.

When it comes to steel roofing and/or siding we tested actual steel sheeted assemblies to determine shear strength. Our testing led to development of an entirely new screw design to provide maximum system strength (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/08/this-is-a-test-steel-strength/).  We couldn’t leave well enough alone, so we had these ‘super screws’ powder coated to minimize or prevent paint chipping. Beauty and strength, a great combination: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/01/powder-coated-screws/.

Prefabricated wood double (ganged) roof trusses directly aligned with sidewall columns. There are a myriad of structural and ease of assembly benefits to this system, read about them here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/04/is-the-double-truss-system-stable-for-the-midwest/.

Prevention of condensation below roof steel is an essential feature in any use structure. Reflective Radiant Barriers are a very popular design solution. Most often these are provided as square edged four foot width rolls, requiring taping of all seams in order to maintain continuity.  We found this system to be inefficient, so we went to having this manufactured just for us in six foot widths plus including an adhesive pull strip tab along one side to eliminate seam taping. This wider width matches up well with two, three foot wide steel panels and reduces the amount of product having to be handled. Extended reading is available here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/05/effective-reflective-insulation/.

Most common sidewall column spacing is every 10 to 14 feet. This allows for greater flexibility in wider doors in sidewalls, without a need for expensive (and occasionally difficult to install) structural headers. It also minimizes probably the worst part of post frame construction – digging holes. You won’t want to miss this: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/03/efficient-buildings/.

Bookshelf style wall girts, for all spans over eight feet. Turned in this direction makes for very stiff walls, meeting Code requirements for both strength and deflection limitations.  Read about how this works and why it is important: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/03/girts/.

Most Hansen Pole Buildings come with overhangs (in my humble opinion they all should). And most of these overhangs are enclosed (they have soffits). Besides superior looks, when factory perforated the soffit material becomes an integral part of a properly vented attic. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/03/overhangs-2/. Our most popular soffit material is vinyl, which is manufactured in 12 foot long panels. Most overhangs are 12, 18 or 24 inches in width, necessitating having to cut them into smaller pieces. As a service to our clients, we have developed an in-house precutting line to eliminate field cutting.

Hansen Pole Buildings’ Instant Pricing™ program allows for total customization of  building width, length, height and roof slopes – without paying a premium to do so. More about Instant Pricing here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/10/hansen-buildings-instant-pricing/.

500+ page illustrated step-by-step Construction Manual. It does matter how good post frame building plans are (and ours are specific down to showing every piece), if there are not great instructions to guide contractors or Do-It-Yourselfers to an excellent installation. There is nothing even remotely close to ours! Find out how this manual has made my life easy: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/07/how-often-and-why-building-technical-support/, even though we also offer unlimited free Technical Support! If you, or your builder, get stuck or are just unsure actual experienced experts will answer your questions or just reassure you (when necessary).

Hansen Buildings Construction ManualAnd, something no other post frame building kit provider has – a Written Limited Lifetime Structural Warranty on all non-commercial post frame building kits. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/11/pole-building-warranty/.

These benefits clearly show why Hansen Pole Buildings provides The Ultimate Post Frame Building Experience™.

This entry was posted in Roofing Materials, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Pole Building Doors, Trusses, Ventilation, Insulation, Powder Coated Screws, Pole Barn Design, Pole Building Comparisons, Professional Engineer, About The Pole Barn Guru, Columns, Building Department, Fasteners and tagged , , , , , on by .

Acquire a Building Permit First

You want a new pole barn, so you put together some plans, order up some materials, have them delivered and start building. In all of this excitement something was overlooked – acquiring a Building Permit!

Reader SHELBY in COLORADO writes:

“Hello,

My name is Shelby, my father and I are trying to build a pole barn and they are saying we need a ground inspection and trusses report to say that it can handle so much wind and snow! We have the building plan and started having all the materials delivered but we can’t get a building permit till we get these two inspections! I was wondering if that is something you could possibly help us with or if you know someone who could! So we could get this permit!”


It appears you have placed a proverbial cart before the horse. Before even contemplating any building project there are a pair of conversations you should have with proper authorities. First of these will be to your Planning Department: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/01/planning-department-3/, second to your Building Department: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/01/building-department-checklist/.

Your Building Department wants an engineered soils report for your site, not an unusual request in much of Colorado, as there are some fairly unstable soils. You will need to contact a Registered Professional Engineer in your area who specializes in geotechnical work (Google – Geotechnical Engineers near me). They will visit your site and do an analysis to determine if it is even capable of being built upon. With this report in hand you can then take this soils report and your proposed building plans to yet another RDP (Registered Design Professional – architect or engineer) who can prepare a set of sealed drawings for your building. “Truss report” being asked for are engineer sealed drawings for prefabricated trusses you will be utilizing to support your building’s roof. You will need to provide your RDP sealed plans to your choice of truss providers, so they can design trusses adequate to support loads detailed within your sealed plans.

Sadly, you may have already invested in some materials you will be unable to use in construction of a properly designed building. All of these reasons are why I always encourage clients to invest in a complete post frame (pole barn) building package from a supplier who can provide engineer sealed plans specifically for your building, along with correct materials delivered to your site – it could have saved you a significant amount of heartache, as well as money.


 

 

This entry was posted in Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure and tagged , , , , on by .

Building Your Own Gambrel Barn Wood Roof Trusses

Gambrel style rooflines are often enticing, they offer the feeling (however not the reality) of getting added space for free. Building your own gambrel barn trusses might appear on the surface like a way to make this even a greater savings.

This was prompted by an inquiry from reader DON in WAYNE. Don writes:

“I am building a 24 ft. wide x 40 ft. length barn. I am going to build a gambrel truss with 2×8 and with 4 ft. wide gussets. How far apart should I space them using purlins and should I use 2×4 or 2×6 purlins. I was thinking of going 4’ wide with the trusses and using 2×4 spaced 2 ft. wide for the purlins.”

Mistake number one is even considering building your own trusses, on site, unless you are constructing them from drawings designed and sealed by a Registered Design Professional (RDP – licensed architect or engineer). Chances are way too good (100% guaranteed) you are dooming your building (and possibly its occupants) to failure. In all seriousness, prefabricated steel connector plated wood trusses are the only way to go – you will save money in the long run and you will be able to sleep soundly at night.

Your second mistake is in trying to be your own building engineer. If it was my own building (depending upon the design wind and snow loads), I would probably be using a single truss on each endwall and double (two ply) trusses every ten feet, bearing directly upon the columns. In my humble opinion this will give you the safest end resultant as the trusses can be notched into the columns and not possibly slide down the columns (or have a questionable connection to a header or truss carrier). You can then utilize 2×6 (or 2×8 depending upon loads) roof purlins on edge to support the roofing.

Your idea of using 2×4 (I am guessing flat over the tops of the trusses) every two feet and spanning four feet will not work unless you have the availability of lumber graded higher than the Standard and Construction material from your local lumber yard.

To avoid making crucial mistakes, which could waste your hard earned money, I would recommend you invest in a fully engineered post frame building kit package.

 

 

This entry was posted in Trusses, Gambrel, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , , , on by .

My Building Inspector Made Me

My Building Inspector Made Me…..
An all to familiar tale from those who go by the premise, “penny wise and pound foolish”…. in the misguided attempt to shave a few dollars off the investment in a new building, the price of the engineer sealed plans has been deducted from the budget.

Very rarely is this the correct choice, as has befallen reader COREY in HOPEWELL who writes:

“My building inspector has made me use a continuous lvl on both sides of a 6×6 pt on all four sides (gables included) of a 32×32 pole barn with trusses at 24″ centers. He approved the thrulok fastener. The fasteners are made for conventional lumber so they are not long enough I would like to use a carriage bolt but he wants a drawing or approved sketch with the fasteners size, total per post and locations on each post including corners. The posts are on 8′ centers The barn is constructed with the trusses installed. I need a proper fastener to continue. Can you help?

Mike the Pole Barn Guru Writes:

You are now finding out all too quickly (as well as the hard way) the advantages of investing in an engineered post frame building kit package.

Without engineering for your building, you are essentially putting the building officials in the position of being the defacto engineer of record. As such if an error is to be made it is going to be on the side of conservatism and caution. Very few building officials are actually engineers, so they have to cover not only their posteriors, but those of the jurisdiction they represent.

Without knowledge of any of the loads which are to be applied to your building, I cannot speak to the adequacy or need for LVLs on both sides of the building columns. If you are using a structural truss on each building end (highly recommended) then the LVLs across each endwall are essentially doing nothing but emptying your pocket book.

The FastenMaster™ ThruLok screw bolt comes in lengths of 6-1/4″, 7″ and 8″. If your intent was to place dimensional lumber truss carriers on each side of the columns, the overall thickness of 8-1/2″ would have made their use prohibitive from the get go. I am hopeful your design utilized the LVL truss carriers being notched into the columns, which is an excellent solution to gravitational forces and leaves only the uplift forces to contend with, in which case, your choice of fastener (since the building official initially approved them) should be a longer ThruLok.

In answer to “can I help”, most certainly – contact a local registered professional engineer who, in all reality, should do a site built analysis of your building and provide you with sealed plans for all of the members along with the proper connectors. You might be able to find an engineer whom would design just this connection, however doing so could make him or her the engineer of record for the entire building, and I would not want to risk engineering registration on this type of situation. It would have to be all or nothing in my eyes.

This entry was posted in Lumber, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Building Department, Trusses and tagged , , , on by .

Help! My Pole Barn Has Frost Heave

Help! My Pole Barn Has Frost Heave

Reader DAVID in MINNESOTA writes:

“I looked through many pages of your blog and found nothing yet that deals with my frost heave problem.

Bought lake property 8 years ago that had a 24 X 24 pole shed that was 5 years old. It has concrete floor with concrete on 3 sides of each 6 X 6 except pole by walk-in door which has concrete on all 4 sides. Poles every 8 feet except front (west) side which has 16′ garage door and walk-in door.

All poles are moving up except maybe corner pole in SE corner. They vary in movement from 1-5 inches. I dug down in one corner to see how deep the poles are in the ground and it was 56 down to what feels like a concrete pad at the bottom of the hole. The building is located is central Minnesota in a lakes region with sandy subsoil.

I am considering attaching 2 X 12s to the inside of the poles at the level they were initially at the top of the floor. Then cutting off the poles to lower the building and attaching some heavy angle iron to the 2 X 12s and the floor.

Another consideration is to try to jack up each pole so they are all level again and attach the angle irons to the poles and the floor and then deal with the doors.

The floor has not sunk (the electric service cable coming in pulled down on the breaker box and broke the main breaker) but the floor is in good condition.

Two of the poles would not be able to be dug down to the bottom as the septic tank is too close.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru writes:

In your property purchase you have inherited someone else’s lack of planning which has become your problem. The great majority of frost heave potential can initially be solved by proper site preparation – and your building is fairly obviously not on a properly prepared site.

Cutting off the poles and lowering the building is probably not going to be a fix and is going to add even more problems. You will now no longer have proper transfer of downward loads to the footing pads and to prevent settling would require any brackets to be able to spread the loads out over a large surface of your concrete slab – with the strong potential for your slab to be cracked by them. Provided you were able to adequately distribute the loads, you also have the issues of uplift and overturning to overcome and your probably four inch thick concrete floor is possibly not adequate to withstand any of these forces.

In all likelihood the answer probably lies in getting the water out from under your building – which may involve some sort of trenching around the perimeter. Your septic system being so close to your building is probably adding to the problem (this is part of why Planning and Building Departments require buildings to be set back from septic systems).

Obviously you are asking for some expert advice, which could save your building. Due to the factors involved in your particular site – I am going to recommend you hire a registered professional engineer who specializes in soils to come to your site and do a thorough analysis of the situation. He or she should be able to design a fix for your challenge – however (just a warning) the solution could be more expensive than the building is worth.

Sadly, it could be the best solution may be to properly prepare an adjacent site, take the building apart and reassemble it on the better location.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design, Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Structure, Concrete, Columns, Pole Barn holes, Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , , on by .

When the Truss People Do the Dog

Yes, it happens.

My long time readers will recall I owned two prefabricated light gauge metal plate connected wood truss plants in a not too distant past.

And yes – this may come as a surprise – truss people are not perfect.

In this particular case, we had set out what we needed explicitly as far as the aforementioned butt cut sizes, truss loadings, etc. (Read previous two blogs to catch up.)

Well, the truss people decided to quote all 26 trusses exactly the same!!

We happen to buy lots of trusses from these folks – they are by far the largest wholesale manufacturer of trusses in the Northeastern United States. The number of errors they have made in the nearly 15 years we have been their customer could be counted upon in one hand, and leave fingers left over.

Turns out they picked this one.

Now Hansen Pole Buildings does have Justine (the goddess of all things to be delivered to your new building kit – including trusses). Justine handles tens of thousands of orders a year, the huge majority of them perfectly and seamlessly, without a hitch. Trusses, lumber, steel, doors, down to the infinitesimal screw – Justine does it all.

Well – sure enough, this is the hitch job. Justine didn’t catch the “oops” on the part of the truss manufacturer.

building-plansNow it is possible, just maybe, the uber-experienced builder might have looked at the building plans and caught the double lined box with red print which says (in CAPS), “TRUSSES IN THIS AREA HAVE STANDARD ¼” HEEL CUT; OTHER TRUSSES HAVE 11/16” HEEL CUT SO THE BOTTOM OF ALL TRUSSES ARE AT THE SAME POINT.”

Mr. Experienced Builder, however, did not notice all of the trusses were identical and didn’t call until AFTER he had all of the truss carriers up in place at the same level. He was wondering what to do with the hump in the roof which would be caused by the 7/16” OSB in the last eight feet of the roof.

Success in construction is measured not by everything being perfect, but by how challenges get handled. This one was fairly simple upon recommendation from Hansen Pole Buildings (after, of course, consulting with our Registered Professional Engineer who designed the structure) – the end trusses and the trusses at four feet in from each end could be placed into a notch on the top of the truss carriers 7/16” deep to compensate, without negative structural consequences and all was good.

There was now peace on Earth and all was happiness.

Until……

Please tune in tomorrow, same time, same channel for more in the continuing saga!

This entry was posted in Roofing Materials, Constructing a Pole Building, Building Contractor, Trusses, Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , , on by .
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