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Sealing Gaps, a Moisture Problem, and Girt/Columns/Wiring advice

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about how to best seal gaps at wall tops and a roll-up coil door, creating a moisture problem, and advice for girts, columns, and wiring.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What can I do to seal these gaps? We live in the garage and it’s getting cold out. TIFFANY

DEAR TIFFANY: There should be inside closure strips on top of eave strut under your roof steel. On endwalls, emseal expandable closures can be placed between rake trims and endwall steel. There should be a flat (wide face to sky) jamb across top of roll up door opening. These would help to seal around door opening https://www.snirtstopper.com/

 

vented-closure-stripDEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have one more question for you I have a cabin that has 2×6 stud walls 12′ high that I put 2″ foam under slab and 2″ on the side walls so from under slab to top of walls on the exterior is completely covered in foam with 2″s of closed cell spray foam sprayed to the interior of the 2″ pink. Then 5″s of closed cell sprayed on the roof for a hot roof. My problem is I’m heating this building with electric boiler and my bills have been quite high. In the house side I have vaulted ceilings so not much I can do there but my garage ceiling is 12′ with no insulation at that level because of the hot roof in your opinion if I blew in insulation at the 12′ ceiling height what would you do between the blown in and hot roof I’m worried about creating a moisture problem and mold and thinking I should vent that area above the garage too the outside what’s your thoughts thanks. CHRIS in HIXTON

DEAR CHRIS: Very valid concern. You would need to vent at eave and ridge. Make sure to leave at least an inch of unobstructed airflow between top of blown in insulation and underside of roof deck, from eaves to ridge.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: 1. Are properly blocked and attached bookshelf girts between 6×6 posts 4 ft on center without any exterior girts an acceptable approach? Same question for the purlins for the trusses. 2. Instead of adding the one and a half inch on the girts board, is it an acceptable practice to drill through the 6×6 posts for wiring? ERIC

Hansen Buildings Construction ManualDEAR ERIC: 4 foot on center makes for an awful lot of holes to dig and posts to set, not to mention becoming very limiting on width of openings like windows. We would recommend (of course with engineer’s approval) glulaminated columns every 12′ or even 16′). Outside of this, it is an acceptable approach, provided you can attach your splash plank to adequately transfer shear loads. We always recommend insetting roof purlins between trusses using engineered hangers.

Think of a hole being drilled through as being an “open knot”. Lumber grading rules refer to these as being “Unsound or Loose Knots and Holes” due to any cause.

For #2 graded lumber holes may be no less than every two feet and up to 5/8” diameter in a 2” nominal face; 7/8” in a 3” nominal face; 1-1/4” for 4”; 1-1/2” for 6”; 2” for 8” and 2-12” for 10”.

For higher grades holes may be no less than every three feet and up to ½” diameter in a 2” nominal face; ¾” in a 3” nominal face; 1” for 4”; 1-1/4” for 6” and 1-1/2” for 8” and wider.

Any holes drilled through pressure preservative treated lumber or columns, especially near grade, should be treated with a Copper Naphthenate solution. Copper Naphthenate is available as a brush-on or spray-on.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Building Interior, Pole Barn Design, Columns, Building Overhangs, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Homes, Pole Barn Heating, Barndominium, Ventilation, floorplans, Lumber, Insulation and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , on by .

Help, I am Going Crazy! Building a Pole Barn House

Help, I am Going Crazy!

Reader DIRK in SPANISH FORK writes:

“I am planning to build a pole barn house. I get so confused with the different methods of doing things and the pros and cons of each. I plan to pour concrete piers with a post bracket. Not sure if a 6×6 post or 3 ply 2×6 is better? Maybe this is determined by the way trusses attach. My longest span is 50 ft on 10 ft o.c. If I need double trusses then I might not be able to sandwich the trusses between 2x6s on the laminated column unless i put four 2x6s. I have seen double trusses sitting in a notch. As far as the exterior walls I am not sure what method is better. Bookshelf/Commercial or Girts on outside and inside? Do I need sheathing on the exterior if I am doing a stone wainscot and LP type siding? Air/Water barrier details and how and where to install? Help me! I am going crazy!”

Help is on its way – so no need to go crazy!

Your best column is going to be a glulam, hands down.

Solid sawn columns (e.g. a 6×6) are unlikely to be found kiln dried. This means they are going to be prone to warp, check and twist as they dry.

Strength: bending strength is a product of Sm (Section modulus – depth squared x width divided by six) multiplied by Fb (Fiberstress in bending). Sm for a 6×6 is 5.5 x 5.5 x 5.5 / 6 = 27.729. Fb for #2 DFL (Douglas Fir-Larch) posts and timbers is 750.

27.729 x 750 = 20,796.75

If nailing together three 2×6 #2 DFL Sm = 3 x 1.5 x 5.5 x 5.5 / 6 = 22.6875 Fb for #2 DFL 2×6 is 1170 and 3 members together gets a repetitive member increase of 15%

22.6875 x 1170 x 1.15 = 30,526

Our 3 ply glu-lams have a Sm of 18.058. Take this value times 3000 = 54,173 or 177% of three 2×6 nailed up.

Nailed up columns have some of their own challenges, they are very flexible in weak axis bending (pushing against the 5-1/2″ face). If nails shorter than 4-1/2″ are used and members are nailed from each side, more force is transmitted to the center of the three plies. In testing to failure, this center member fails prematurely nearly every time. As these members still act independent from each other, they are still prone to warp and twist.

You really want to use doubled (2 ply) trusses. A true double truss system, such as used by Hansen Pole Buildings, features trusses physically attached face-to-face by means of mechanical connectors (structural screws). This allows for two members to actually load share, reducing probabilities of one weak single truss failing and pulling a roof system down with it. It also minimizes need for lateral bracing.

Trusses should be set into a notch cut into one side of the column. Trying to utilize a center notch makes setting trusses exceedingly difficult and requires heavy equipment.

Bookshelf girts are really your best design solution. An externally mounted wall girt, on 10 foot bays, deflects too much to adequately support your siding choices. Bookshelf girts are far stiffer against wind loads, provide a deep insulation cavity and allow for a single member to be used.

Your stone wainscot will require sheathing and I would not personally install LP siding without sheathing. An Omnidirectional water resistant barrier should be placed on exterior side of your sheathing (under siding).

Please reach out to me any time with questions. My goal is to assist clients in getting structurally sound buildings they will love forever.

This entry was posted in Budget, Columns, Pole Barn Homes, Lumber, Pole Barn Questions, Post Frame Home, Pole Barn Design, Barndominium, Pole Barn Planning and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Average Cost in WA State, Garage with Dwelling Unit, and Combo Girts

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru addresses reader questions about the average cost of “a 1200 sf 2 bed 1 bath 1 carport 1 small porch for a contractor in WA state?” If a person can build one structure for a garage with a dwelling unit, and if it would be beneficial to install commercial girts and external/barn girts.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What is the average cost for a 1200 sf 2 bed 1 bath 1 carport 1 small porch for a contractor in WA state to build one of your kits? TERRI in LONGVIEW

DEAR TERRI: Fully engineered post frame, modest tastes, totally DIY, move in ready, budget roughly $70-80 per sft of floor space for living areas, $35 for all others. Does not include land, site prep, utilities, permits. Your new Hansen Pole Building kit is designed for an average physically capable person, who can and will read and follow instructions, to successfully construct your own beautiful building shell, without extensive prior construction knowledge (and most of our clients do DIY – saving tens of thousands of dollars). We’ve had clients ranging from septuagenarians to fathers bonding with their teenage daughters erect their own buildings, so chances are – you can as well! Your new building investment includes full multi-page 24” x 36” structural blueprints detailing location and attachment of every piece (as well as suitable for obtaining Building Permits), our industry’s best, fully illustrated, step-by-step installation manual, and unlimited technical support from people who have actually built post frame buildings. Even better – it includes our industry leading Limited Lifetime Structural warranty! If hiring it done turnkey, expect to pay two to three times as much. This is why so many of our clients do some or all work themselves.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My question is that i want one pole barn to house at least 4 vehicles, an RV as large as 45 ft. and a small home around 500 sq feet. Is this possible? JASON in OWENSBORO

DEAR JASON: From a structural standpoint what you propose is entirely doable. Some jurisdiction set minimum square footage requirements for residential living space, so you will want to reach out to your local Planning Department. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/01/your-barndominiums-planning-department/

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Is it beneficial to install both commercial girts as well as barn girts? The barn girts would serve as a larger mating/screw surface. Additional costs aside, seems like it might be nice! MATT in SPOKANE

DEAR MATT: While it would certainly make for a larger screw target, when wall steel panels are predrilled, keeping screw lines straight and hitting commercial girts really is not an issue. Outside of extra materials and more labor, there are a couple of areas of possible concern: 6×6 columns vary in dimension. With a 2×8 commercial girt, extending 1-1/2″ outside of columns, a 6×6 up to 5-3/4″ can easily be hidden. If your idea is to use a 2×6 commercial girt, behind a 2×4 external girt, if columns run over dimension they will leave an uneven surface for internal finish. Of course, should you mount a 2×4 external girt above or below a 2×8 commercial girt (forming an “L”), then this concern goes away. Your other possible challenge would be in connecting these two members. Greatest force on wall girts is outward suction, so your 2×4 external girt and 2×6 bookshelf commercial girt will need to be adequately connected so as to not have external girt pull away and fail. This connection should be analyzed by an engineer.

This entry was posted in Constructing a Pole Building, Shouse, Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Planning, Building Interior, RV Storage, Pole Barn Questions, Post Frame Home, Pole Barn Design, Barndominium, Building Styles and Designs and tagged , , , , , on by .

Help! My Barndominium Roof is Dripping!

Help! My Barndominium Roof Is Dripping!

Reader TIMM in WHITEFISH writes:

“Thanks for taking my question. I recently built a barndominium in NW Montana. I tried to find someone to build it for me, but the demand and cost in the area had gone up so much that I had to do almost all the work on my own. I was not completely unfamiliar with building but not an expert by any means but I was able to get it built with helpful videos found online. I finished the home in late October and have moved in. The home is 28’x36′ with 10′ walls and is all living space, no garage. I had planned on doing spray foam insulation around the entire shell of the barn and had hired a company in August to come out and spray the barn but they were not going to be able to get to the building until December at the earliest but we were willing to do it and fight through the winter in our camper. Our plumber mentioned a product to us that he had seen some other clients use called Prodex that had similar characteristics of spray foam with a reflective surface on both sides and it was something I could do myself and much sooner. I did some research and the product looked good and the reviews looked good so I bought some and installed it. The steel was already on when I installed it so the Prodex was installed by stapling or screwing to the Purlins/Girts around the whole building which was an install method on their website. While we were mudding/painting/texturing I noticed some condensation in the attic in between the steel and the Prodex insulation (I could see where it was coming through a seam in the Prodex). I asked some people and they thought it was just because I was putting a lot of moisture in the air that was causing the condensation and it would dry out when we were done. On a recent trip up to the attic I noticed that the steel is still condensating when it is cold outside and the Prodex itself seems to be condensating as well. I emailed Prodex and they told me that it is caused by cold air moving across the inside surface of the steel and I should put foam around the ridge cap, eave edge of roof and tops of wall. I have foam around the ridge cap, but nothing on the ridge cap ends, I have foam on the eave edge of the roof, but only in the high ridge parts, and I have nothing on the walls. I am also concerned that this is happening inside of the walls which may lead to a bad mold problem next summer. My question is, how do I get it to stop condensating? I am ready to do whatever I need to do. I just don’t want to throw ideas at the house until something works. As far as ventilation goes, I am sure I do not have enough but was hoping to address that in the summer months. I do not have eaves on the building which I regret so my only real ventilation is the ridge cap and the little bit that may be coming through the ridges on the eave edge of the roof. I thought about gable vents, but I felt like that would let too much cold air in and would make the issue worse, but maybe that is what I need? If I put in gable vents, do I pull out the Prodex insulation and leave bare metal on the inside of the attic? I am trying to figure out a way to reduce the moisture right away (dehumidifier?) while I work on a long term solution but I don’t know which direction to go to solve this issue. I thought about pulling off the steel and putting in plywood sheeting, but we are in the middle of winter and that would have to wait until Spring at least and I am afraid I will end up with too much water damage by then. I have even considered putting sheeting under the roof and replacing the outside walls with wood siding but the cost would be high and I feel like there should be a solution to this issue. For heat we electric wall heaters (Cadet in-set wall units) occasionally and a pellet stove most of the time. We put the Prodex insulation as well as blown insulation in the attic to about 12 inches deep and we put Prodex as well as rolled insulation in the walls for a total of about an R30 value. Dryer and bathroom vents both go outside and nothing is venting into the attic. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru says:

Kudos to you for doing a D-I-Y. Sadly you were lead to a product (Prodex) claiming to be insulation, however in reality it is a condensation control, and only if totally sealed.

All of these issues could have been easily addressed at time of construction had your building kit provider given you proper advice.

First thing to do is to get your attic properly ventilated – you need to add at least 121 square inches of NFVA (Net Free Ventilating Area) to each gable end. This will give you an air intake and your vented ridge will then function as a proper exhaust. By itself, this should greatly minimize, if not totally cure your problems.

Pole Barn Guru BlogAs time allows, remove roof Prodex, have two inches of closed cell spray foam applied to roof steel underside, and increase thickness of blown in attic insulation to R-60.

If you do not have a well-sealed vapor barrier under your concrete floor, if possible, seal top side of it (this is where moisture is coming from).

Heating as much as possible with your pellet stove will also help to dry your interior air out and provided your slab is sealed, should help greatly.

I do have some concerns about your walls, if you have faced insulation batts with Prodex on outside of batts, you are potentially trapping moisture between two vapor barriers. If this is indeed your case, come Spring, remove siding (one wall at a time) , remove Prodex (as much as possible) and add a Weather Resistant Barrier (Tyvek or similar) to the exterior of framing, properly seal all wall openings and reinstall wall steel.

This entry was posted in Insulation, Pole Barn Heating, Pole Barn Questions, Roofing Materials, Barndominium, Ventilation and tagged , , , , , , , , , , , on by .

Cabin Insulation Follow Up

Cabin Insulation Follow Up

First Winter Heating Bill

Mike’s loyal readers may recall that I was privileged to be able to write several blog articles on the development of my plans to build my fishing cabin.

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/03/development-of-my-cabin-plans/

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/03/pole-barn-cabin-part-ii/

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/03/participating-in-ricks-post-frame-cabin-planning/

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/04/my-pole-barn-cabin-part-iii/

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/10/my-fishing-cabin-is-finished/

During my time as a Building Designer, I strongly emphasized to all of my clients that they should have an insulation plan for their building BEFORE they order the building!  The reason being that any design elements for the insulation, such as 2×8 walls or 2×10 roof purlins can be designed prior to ordering.

One of the blogs went into detailed information on how I insulated the building in which I said tongue in cheek that the winter will tell the tale of how well it worked.  For that reason, I thought that I’d send in the “Paul Harvey” version.

This link tells you how and why I insulated it the way that I did, with pictures:

https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/06/fishing-cabin-insulation/

Now for the rest of the story

On December 15th, 2020 I had the LP company top off my tank a little extra.  My driveway is 700 feet and I did not intend to plow it and wanted to be sure that there was ample gas to get through the winter.  They filled it to 92%.

They did not refill the tank until 7-20 21.   They filled it from 62% to 80%!  It only took from 92% down to 62% to heat the building ALL winter! 

 

I would leave the thermostat set at about 50 degrees and when I would come out, the in-floor heat would have a hard time getting the building warm.  No problem.  The wood burning stove would get the temperature up to 70 in less than two hours and the in-floor heating would keep it there.

All in all, I am very happy about it!  Less than $200 to heat for the whole winter and it got cold!

When planning your building be sure to have the insulation plan prior to ordering the building!

This entry was posted in Uncategorized and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Helping a Student with His Post Frame Thesis

Post frame buildings are becoming more relevant as a design solution for residential construction. I recently was contacted to assist a student and will let him tell his story:

post-frame-building“My name is George xxxxxx, I am currently a thesis student at Auburn University’s Rural Studio, located in Hale County, Alabama. I am looking into pole barn // post frame construction as a method for quickly building strong homes. Hansen seems like it has more experience in this methodology than most in the nation, where most contractors are afraid of diverging from traditional stick-frame construction. I am particularly interested in the structuring of your residential homes (the retirement home in Decatur is beautiful), and your opinion on steel vs. wood roof framing. If there is an expert who would be willing to spend some minutes this week answering a few of my questions it would be greatly appreciated! Also, if you have more questions about the Rural Studio I would be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.”


Being all about education and post frame, my answer was to the affirmative and here are George’s questions and their answers:

“We have seen a lot of other builders using steel trusses for both residential and commercial applications, however, your portfolio shows a large number of projects using wood trusses spaced significantly further than the typical 2′-4′ you see in stick frame. 

 

  • 1. When do you make the decision to go wood over steel?
  • 2. In relation to residential projects, is one more advantageous than the other in terms of detailing, cost or time?
  • 3, What kinds of applications do you use the 12’+ spacing, is it something you would employ for a small home? 
  • 4. What are your typical dimensions of wood posts?
  • 5. What are your standard dimensions between posts?
  • 6. Do you use girts or studwalls in the framing of residential post frame construction?
  • 7. Does using girts provide greater lateral stability?
  • 8. Why, in your opinion, has residential construction been dominated by stick frame construction, while post frame is a viable alternative?”

 

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

1) We use wood over steel trusses 100% of the time.

2) Prefabricated wood roof trusses are highly engineered products subject to intensive quality control standards. Every truss is fabricated from engineer sealed drawings with design wind and snow loads specific to the jobsite upon where trusses will be used. Each manufacturer must keep a log of all trusses produced and any deviation from sealed drawings (higher grades of lumber used, larger pressed steel connector plates, etc.). Every truss must be stamped with appropriate information about it as well as the fabricator’s name and location. Prefabricated metal connector plated wood trusses are also subjected to random quarterly inspections from a third party provider – and one does not want to ever fail an inspection. Most steel trusses used for post frame construction are not engineered, not fabricated by certified welders and face none of these quality control standards wood trusses are required to have. For these reasons, most of them get used in jurisdictions with either no permits required, or no structural plan checks or field inspections.

Even with today’s record high lumber prices, prefabricated metal connector plated wood trusses still compare favorably in investment to steel trusses. Wood trusses are not conductors of heat and cold, as are steel trusses, meaning they do not need to be thermally isolated from climate controlled areas as steel trusses should be. Wood trusses are very user friendly in attachment of other wood framing members.

3) More often than not a 12 foot on center column spacing is most economical in use of materials and labor. Our Instant Pricing system allows for rapid checking of various column spacings in order to determine a most efficient spacing for any given set of loading conditions. Wider truss spacing means fewer column holes to dig and less worry about trying to place openings (doors and windows) to avoid column locations.

4) In solid sawn columns 4×6 (3-1/2″ x 5-1/2″), 6×6 (5-1/2″ x 5-1/2″) and 6×8 (5-1/2″ x 7-1/2″). In glulaminated columns 3 ply 2×6 (4-1/8″ x 5-3/8″). 4 ply 2×6 (5-1/2″ x 5-3/8″) and 3 ply 2×8 (4-1/8″ x 7-1/8″) are most common.

5) With 12′ on center columns and 6×6 columns space between columns would be 11′ 6-1/2″ as an example.

6) We use bookshelf style inset girts (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/09/commercial-girts-what-are-they/) for most applications as they require no additional framing in order to be drywall ready. They happen to lend themselves to a better finished drywall surface than studwalls (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/09/11-reasons-post-frame-commercial-girted-walls-are-best-for-drywall/).

7) Lateral stability of any framed structure (stick or post) comes from shear strength of siding – whether wood sheathing such as OSB or plywood, T1-11 or steel.

8) Stick frame has been around longer and Building Codes (especially IRC – International Residential Code) have embraced stick frame by providing a ‘cook book’ for it. Post frame construction just happens to be more economical in terms of foundation costs, use less wood, have fewer thermal transfer points, can easily be built DIY and can be customized far more economically than stick frame.

More than anything, lack of familiarity (by buying public, lenders, building officials and contractors) with post frame as a viable alternative to stick frame. Our team at Hansen Pole Buildings is doing our best to provide educational resources to all interested parties to make a change.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Building Comparisons, Pole Barn Structure, Trusses and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Steel Roofing and Siding Over Purlins

There is just plain a lot of bad (and scary) information floating around out there on the internet. For whatever reason, people will believe a random unqualified answer from a stranger, rather than going to a highly educated expert (e.g. Registered Professional Engineer).

Reader DYLAN in BEDFORD writes:

“I am building a 50×60 using 2×6 stud frame walls. Trusses 4’OC. The garage area (30×60) will have around 12’ceiling. The living area (20×60) will go back and stick build ceiling rafters 2’OC to make 8’ceilings. 12’ ceiling on the living area is just more to heat and cool – not necessary. My builder right now plans on putting 2×4 purlins and 2×4 girts on roof and side walls. Then wrap the whole thing with tyvek and out metal on. 

My question starts with is this ok? 

Should I consider plywood/osb on the roof or walls in lieu of 2×4 purlins/girts?

Are 4’oc trusses ok if I am going back to the living area and building ceilings 2’oc?

Are 2’oc rafters ok assuming I finish the ceiling with 5/8” drywall or wood tongue groove or similar?

I will probably spray foam insulation in the living area. This should help with noise during rain on the metal roof.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

My recommendation would have been for you to erect a fully engineered post frame building, rather than spending tens of thousands of extra dollars in an attempt to make a stick framed house look like a pole building.

Ultimately how your building is assembled structurally should be up to whatever engineer you (or your builder) hire to provide your home’s engineered plans. Building Codes do not allow for stick framed walls taller than 11’7″ without engineering, so you should be there already.

Steel panels should not ever be screwed into OSB only and even plywood only would only be on roofs if you are using a standing seam (concealed fastener) steel. I (and most likely your engineer) will specify 2×4 or even 2×6 girts and/or purlins in order to provide a proper surface to screw steel panels to. Your trusses every four feet may be adequate in your living area, it will depend upon how your engineer designs structural attachment of your furred down ceiling, as well as weight supported by it. Rafters 24 inches on center will provide sufficient support for 5/8″ drywall.

You should not place Tyvek between roof framing and roof steel – as Weather Resistant Barriers (WRB) allow moisture to pass through. This could allow condensation to be trapped between your home’s WRB and roof steel, causing premature deterioration.

This entry was posted in Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Homes, Building Department, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning and tagged , , , , , , , , , , on by .

Bookshelf Girts or Stud Walls?

Why Use Bookshelf Girts Rather Than Studs?

Long time readers may recall my Grandpa Pete was a home builder and his sons – Sid (my father), Neil, Lyle, Gil, Dave and Amund were all framing contractors. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/06/before-the-pole-barn-guru/. Besides being raised with “wood is good”, I had a concept of vertical stud walls permanently ingrained in my head!

Stud walls led to my losing my posterior erecting my first post frame (pole barn) building. I struggled with this 90 degree ‘flip’ in framing concept far more than I needed to. Luckily, I was able to wrap my head around left-to-right rather than up and down when it came to my second building and I actually made some very good money!

Reader TRENT in WALLA WALLA writes:

“I am currently working on plans for building my first post frame home. It will be 30×48 single story. I am trying to figure out the best wall girt design. I am looking at going with 2×8 bookshelf wall girts or vertical stud walls between the posts. I see more people going with bookshelf girts vs vertical studs. Is there any drawbacks or reasons not to use vertical stud wall framing between the posts?”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Installing a ceilingPretty straightforward – vertical stud walls will take more lumber. Besides increased material investment, more pieces mean more connections and more labor.

Imagine, if you will, a pole building with a 10′ eave height and columns every 12 feet. Bookshelf girts take (1) 2x4x12′ pressure treated, (4) 2x8x12′, (2) 2x4x8′ for blocking girts ends and (2) 2x4x12′ to attach drywall at the ceiling level – 98.67 board feet of lumber. For stud walls (1) 2x6x12′ pressure treated, (7) 2x6x10′ studs, (1) 2x6x12′ top plate, (1) 2x4x12′ to attach drywall at ceiling level, (4) 2x4x12′ horizontally to attach steel to wall studs – 134 board feet of lumber. From a structural aspect, care will need to be exercised in attachment of the top plate and end studs to adequately transfer wall bay wind loads to columns. It may necessitate some sort of Simpson strap to properly anchor the plate to columns.

 

 

 

 

This entry was posted in Lumber, Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , on by .

Rough Cut Lumber, Insurance, and Girt Orientation

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hi, I’m planning on building a ( 32’ x 60’ x 12’ ) Pole Barn with 4/12 scissor truss.  I want to price out rough cut lumber on walls and ceiling.  How do I calculate the

Amount of board feet lumber I need to cover the walls and ceiling.

Thanks BRIAN

DEAR BRIAN: The first thing you should do is to consult with the engineer who has designed your building to find out if he or she will approve your use of ungraded rough cut lumber (which, unless you season it thoroughly, is going to have a very high moisture content and is going to be prone to warp, twist and shrink as it dries). I cannot imagine very many registered design professionals who are going to approve with the proposed use of your material. In the event you are considering constructing a building without having an engineered set of building plans which are designed specifically for your site and your building – you are putting yourself, your loved ones and your possessions at serious risk. The few dollars you might save by not having engineered plans are just not worth it – please do not be penny wise and pound foolish.

Back to your question – you can take a count of the boards on your engineered building plans which will give you the required lengths and quantity required.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Need an insurance company that will insure 1/2 acre lot with a pole barn that is adjacent to 1/2 acre lot with a lake house but on two separate deeds. FRANK in LOUISVILLE

DEAR FRANK: I would suspect any independent insurance agent can find you several companies who would happily write a policy for you. Try calling one or more in your area.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Can you explain girt detail why the 2×6 are placed horizontal and not vertical and why they hang off 1.5 inches past the columns? OWEN in FLORA

DEAR OWEN: This article explains the why of how the wall girts are oriented: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/03/girts/

They hang 1-1/2″ outside the columns so the outside face is in the same plane as other members such as the 2×8 pressure preservative treated skirt board, large door headers, etc. It also allows for any wiring to be placed horizontally without having to drill through columns.

 

 

This entry was posted in Lumber, Pole Barn Structure, Building Interior and tagged , , , on by .

Drywall Idea, Bolt Counts? and Don’t D-I-Y This!

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Will I have problem with moisture in the wall if I nail drywall to the gerts and leave the 6×6 poles exposed? I may put a stove for heat in it while I am in it occasionally. I have insulted the roof. Concrete floor. JAMES in NEW ALBANY

DEAR JAMES: Provided you have a good building wrap between the siding and the wall girts (read more about building wraps here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/11/house-wrap/), as well as a well-sealed vapor barrier between the girts and the drywall, you should be able to minimize the effects of moisture in the wall.

Now your bad news. I will take a wild guess and surmise your post frame building has girts nailed flat on the outside of the columns. If so, and you attempt to drywall to the inside face of the girts, be prepared for infinite issues with the drywall joints cracking due to excess deflection.

If there is no building wrap, a quick and easy fix is to have an inch or more of closed cell foam insulation sprayed on the inside of the siding.

I’d most probably either build a vertical stud wall between the columns, or place another set of horizontal girts on the inside of the columns. Either of these would afford an insulation cavity with enough depth to make a difference. This would allow BIBs insulation to be blown into the wall with a minimal number of heat transfer points.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: How many lag bolts should be used in a 4 x 6? This is for the truss supports. COREY in PAW PAW.

nailing trussesDEAR COREY: My educated wild guess is your post frame building has trusses placed on top of a truss carrier (basically a header from column to column).

You can find the size and number of required fasteners by looking at the data prepared by the engineer who designed your building, as this information will be on the sealed plans.

Numerous factors would be involved in the determination of adequate fastening. If the carriers are notched into the columns, far fewer fasteners will be required, as they will only be needed to resist wind loads.

If the carriers are placed on the sides of the columns, then the roof load is typically the governing factor. The fasteners then have to resist the live loads (snow and any attic bonus or storage space) plus the dead loads (weight of roof system and covering, as well as any ceiling.

The spacing of the columns and span of the truss impact the number of fasteners as well.

If for some reason this information is lost or missing from your plans, a competent local RDP (Registered Design Professional) should be engaged to provide a connection design for you, as this is hugely critical to prevent unexpected failures which could result in bodily harm or death. DO NOT GUESS.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: How can I build a strong 30 foot truss that won’t sag. LARRY in TYLER

DEAR LARRY: I hate to just throw out the obvious, but in your case I will – DO NOT BUILD YOUR OWN TRUSS.

Prefabricated metal connector plated wood trusses are nothing short of an engineered miracle. You can have them designed to support any load which you can conceive of, have them delivered to your site and engineer sealed drawings are provided to confirm the required load conditions are met.

A quick Google search of “Tyler Texas Wood Roof Trusses” will give you several possibilities to discuss your needs.

 

 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Structure, Trusses, Ventilation, Building Interior, Fasteners, Insulation and tagged , , , , , on by .

Commercial Girts Best for Drywall, Site Prep, and Condensation

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I’m considering a pole barn for my residence but had a question about the girt placement between posts. I read in the FAQ section that they are placed like shelves between posts. Would it be possible to mount drywall directly to these for interior walls without additional bracing or building of interior wall frames? I’m trying to avoid framing an entire building within a building, it seems pointless and not cost effective. If I need to frame every interior wall to hold drywall and insulation, I can simply build a standard stick frame house. VAN in INDEPENDENCE

Installing Drywall on CeilingDEAR VAN: Bookshelf girts for insulation (e.g. Commercial Girts) is a quick and easy way to create a deep insulation cavity as well as providing the framing for your interior GWB (Gypsum Wall Board). You will want to confirm your new post frame building frame is stiff enough to prevent undue deflection from cracking the GWB joints.

Learn more about commercial girts here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/09/commercial-girts-what-are-they/.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have property in an area that floods from time to time. For example, can a monitor barn (approx. 25×50). with side sheds be built. The idea I have is the side sheds serving as porches and under the barn would be a drive through area. there is already a modular home built in the area that is elevated about 4 ft. off the ground and they have had no problem . Thanks, MIKE in MOLINA

DEAR MIKE: You can build any sort of post frame building on your site which will be allowable under the limitations of your Planning Department. As to dealing with the flood issues, you should have your property elevations determined by a surveyor, and the site where the building will be constructed can then be built up so the floor will be above the flood plain level.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I recently purchased several 4’x50′ reflectix double bubble foil rolls. I’ve put up a brand new 30×56 post frame metal building and was going to use this product to keep the metal roof and walls from condensating not to mention I was hoping it would help keep some heat in during the winter and heat out during the summer until I truly insulate the inside. My question is, for ease of installation on my metal roof panels, is it acceptable to put the foil on the underside of the 2×6 roof joists instead of sandwiching it between the roof joists and metal? There will be no roof venting due to leaving the trusses and attic space exposed. My only real concern is that it could condensate worse installing it this way. Also I will not be continually heating the building. Only on occasion with a propane heater while I’m working. I’m not real savvy when it comes to insulation and condensation control so any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Brandon

DEAR BRANDON: While it would be easy to install the steel roofing without having to place the reflective radiant barrier between the roof purlins and the roof steel, it is going to be the easiest method to limit condensation issues, given the product you have invested in. Hopefully you have gotten the double bubble with a tab along one side and an adhesive pull strip, otherwise you will have to tape all of the seams as you work your way along the roof.

Could you place it on the underside of the purlins? Yes, however in order to work as an effective condensation control, it has to be absolutely tightly sealed against any protruding framing members. Remember the time you saved on installing the roof steel? You just ate it all up.

If you have not yet ordered your steel roofing you could resell the reflective radiant barrier online and order steel with I.C.C. (Integral Condensation Control) attached (see the article and video here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/03/integral-condensation-control/).

 

 

This entry was posted in Insulation, Steel Roofing & Siding, Building Interior, Pole Barn Homes, Uncategorized and tagged , , , , , on by .

Pole Building Wall Girts

Movin’ On Up!

Well Leroy will never be confused with Sherman Hemsley of the iconic TV series “The Jeffersons” but his crew was certainly movin’ on up!

Leroy mentioned the man he works for provides neither plans nor a materials list for his crew to build from. They just make the building “work” from the materials which are dropped off. Somehow, this seems less than scientific, especially as they cut all of the notches in the columns for the single trusses spaced every eight feet, then had to go back and cut them all again! It seems they had forgotten to compensate for the purlins, which would run over the tops of the trusses. The crew easily burned several hours in this adventure!

It was of interest to hear Leroy espousing how much money was being saved by his employer using rough cut 5×6 (yes, 5×6 for those in most of the rest of the country) for posts instead of surfaced 6x6s.

At 4-3/4” x 5-3/4” the Section Modulus of the rough 5×6 is 26.17, as compared to the slightly greater 6×6 at 27.73 (within 6% anyhow). As long as the site of this building was Exposure B or C for wind, either size would work – Exposure D, either is a failure (assuming we are talking about Southern Pine lumber, not some lesser species).

For more fun with posts: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/08/lumber-bending/

What I found particularly interesting was the attempts to cut truss notches in the posts, while they will settle further into the ground due to the lack of an adequate footing underneath. If you didn’t read the past two days’ blogs, go back and find out how much concrete was put in the posts, and why it’s nowhere near adequate to keep this building from settling (or heaving due to frost).

I’ve always built by doing the roof first, it made things easier to square up. Leroy’s boys were putting up wall girts as quickly as they could, however. I was impressed by the use of 2×4 1650 msr lumber for the wall framing. This was the first good idea I found my neighbor’s pole building experience.

Learn about msr lumber here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/12/machine-graded-lumber/

Pole Barn Wall GirtsOn this building, the girts were unusually spaced – 31 inches from the top of the pressure treated skirt board, to the bottom of the first girt, then 25-1/4 inches on center above. This means the bottom girt has to carry a tributary load of 29 inches.

With an Exposure B wind condition, they will carry the bending loads (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/03/girts/), however with spans of greater than 24 inches on center, which they all are, results in excess deflection beyond the limitations of the building codes. Adding two more rows of wall girts would have at least been something to even things out.

Now the clincher –only the 40 foot sidewalls were framed prior to all of the windows and the entry door being installed. No apparent attempt was made to insure the corners were plumb, and no apparent connection to the other walls was constructed. The entry door was installed without adding a post on one side for stability! It just sort of “hung there” on the one post.

On the windows, if the wall has to be racked very far to have a plumb corner, undue stresses will be placed upon the frames, resulting in windows which bind when being opened, or possibly cracking from the stresses induced! I’d not want anyone standing below this building if they do decide to square it up.

Come back next week and we’ll see if this saga comes to a close!

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design, Constructing a Pole Building and tagged , , , , on by .

Purlins: Missing Screws

Just in case I have never mentioned how much I appreciate the questions posed to me by Bob, one of the Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designers, I will do so here.

Bob writes,

“I got into a discussion with a gentleman in Kansas that liked our design approach (post spacing, double interior trusses, purlins on edge, etc.) but has no faith at all that he or his crew would hit all of the purlins on edge with the roofing screws.  We discussed pre-drilling and I had him off the ledge, but when the discussion of book shelf girts came up, he started breathing hard again.  Now I’m pretty sure book shelf girts is the only option these days for any pole barn, but it seems I’m dealing with a client that is afraid of pre-drilling and his ability to square his roof and building.

One of your blogs describes the simple fix for a missed hole (“Either push the underlying purlin up towards the peak of the roof, or push it down towards the eave line until the pre-drilled hole aligns with the center of the purlin.”) but I’m having trouble imagining being able to push a purlin that is in place that far.  And if a purlin is pushed into position as described, what happens upon release?  Maybe this is a situation that I could appreciate more with personal experience, but I’m not getting there with my imagination alone… and as a result I won’t be terribly convincing that it’s really that easy.”

The beauty of pre-drilling pilot holes for roof and wall screws is perfectly straight lines. Straight screw lines are truly a thing of beauty – there are few things in life as pleasing as looking across a wall or roof and seeing the screws lined up like soldiers.

In an ideal world, every piece of lumber would be absolutely perfectly straight, and remain this way forever. Lumber, even though it is produced in a factory (a sawmill), is organic – it really wants to return to its nature as a tree. This means it wants to warp, twist, cup, crook or otherwise deflect.

The wonderful thing about lumber is it will flex a long way in the weak (1-1/2” narrow direction). This is exactly why wall girts placed flat on the outside of columns rarely meet the requirements of the codes – they deflect too far!

With both ends of a roof purlin restrained by an engineered joist hanger, or wall girts restrained at each end by solid blocking, the only portion of the framing which will be a potential for a “shiner” is as the girt or purlin approaches the middle of the span.

In the Hansen Buildings product guide (downloadable free on our website), is a photo of my feet (seriously) – as I stand on a 2×6 laid flat (I am standing on the wide 5-1/2 inch face. The 12 foot long 2×6 probably bends close to six inches at the center!

Whilst Bob (and his client) may be concerned about the ability to move purlins or girts up or down, the reality is – wood is forgiving, it can be moved remarkably easily to where it should have been had we been living in the previously mentioned ideal world.

And remember, steel roofing and siding functions much like very strong, very thin plywood. Once the screws are in place, the strength of the screws and the rigidity of the steel will easily hold everything where it ought to be.

FOOTNOTE: (Added by JAHansen, Mike’s wife) – Coming into the pole building business over a dozen years ago, knowing absolutely nothing about lumber, steel and the like, I can certainly identify with the skeptical client.  When you haven’t experienced the ease of building with lumber, 1-1/2” sounds pretty small to “hit” with a screw!

However, I can testify as a true novice at building, Mike’s words are straight as an arrow.  I’ve personally assisted on half a dozen buildings over the past years, and I can say almost every time there was a purlin or girt that looked like the screws were going to “miss” – especially on the wall girts where the weight of the wood sometimes caused the center to droop down an inch or more.  The holes near the ends were not a question for putting the screws into the wood. Because they are near the ends, the holes were “right on”.  We made sure on the center of each purlin or girt to use a block of wood as a support (wall girts) or in case of the roof purlins a “lever” to push the center into alignment.  It’s much easier than it sounds, and yes, the screws were dead on.

Thousands of pole buildings have been built, with no leaking roofs.  That should be solid proof, but if you still have doubts – go watch a pole building being constructed.  Seeing is believing.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Structure, Steel Roofing & Siding, Powder Coated Screws and tagged , , on by .
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