Tag Archives: post frame house

Average Cost in WA State, Garage with Dwelling Unit, and Combo Girts

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru addresses reader questions about the average cost of “a 1200 sf 2 bed 1 bath 1 carport 1 small porch for a contractor in WA state?” If a person can build one structure for a garage with a dwelling unit, and if it would be beneficial to install commercial girts and external/barn girts.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What is the average cost for a 1200 sf 2 bed 1 bath 1 carport 1 small porch for a contractor in WA state to build one of your kits? TERRI in LONGVIEW

DEAR TERRI: Fully engineered post frame, modest tastes, totally DIY, move in ready, budget roughly $70-80 per sft of floor space for living areas, $35 for all others. Does not include land, site prep, utilities, permits. Your new Hansen Pole Building kit is designed for an average physically capable person, who can and will read and follow instructions, to successfully construct your own beautiful building shell, without extensive prior construction knowledge (and most of our clients do DIY – saving tens of thousands of dollars). We’ve had clients ranging from septuagenarians to fathers bonding with their teenage daughters erect their own buildings, so chances are – you can as well! Your new building investment includes full multi-page 24” x 36” structural blueprints detailing location and attachment of every piece (as well as suitable for obtaining Building Permits), our industry’s best, fully illustrated, step-by-step installation manual, and unlimited technical support from people who have actually built post frame buildings. Even better – it includes our industry leading Limited Lifetime Structural warranty! If hiring it done turnkey, expect to pay two to three times as much. This is why so many of our clients do some or all work themselves.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My question is that i want one pole barn to house at least 4 vehicles, an RV as large as 45 ft. and a small home around 500 sq feet. Is this possible? JASON in OWENSBORO

DEAR JASON: From a structural standpoint what you propose is entirely doable. Some jurisdiction set minimum square footage requirements for residential living space, so you will want to reach out to your local Planning Department. https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/01/your-barndominiums-planning-department/

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Is it beneficial to install both commercial girts as well as barn girts? The barn girts would serve as a larger mating/screw surface. Additional costs aside, seems like it might be nice! MATT in SPOKANE

DEAR MATT: While it would certainly make for a larger screw target, when wall steel panels are predrilled, keeping screw lines straight and hitting commercial girts really is not an issue. Outside of extra materials and more labor, there are a couple of areas of possible concern: 6×6 columns vary in dimension. With a 2×8 commercial girt, extending 1-1/2″ outside of columns, a 6×6 up to 5-3/4″ can easily be hidden. If your idea is to use a 2×6 commercial girt, behind a 2×4 external girt, if columns run over dimension they will leave an uneven surface for internal finish. Of course, should you mount a 2×4 external girt above or below a 2×8 commercial girt (forming an “L”), then this concern goes away. Your other possible challenge would be in connecting these two members. Greatest force on wall girts is outward suction, so your 2×4 external girt and 2×6 bookshelf commercial girt will need to be adequately connected so as to not have external girt pull away and fail. This connection should be analyzed by an engineer.

Basement Addition, Gambrel Modification, and a New Home

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about the addition of a basement to an existing pole barn, the possibility of modifying an existing gambrel style horse barn, and the connection of a house and garage.

Ask The Pole Barn GuruDEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am considering building a partial basement under my existing Pole Barn Building (agricultural). There is currently even no slab there. I spoke to different contractors and got very different answers related to the maximum size of the basement. I learnt already that I need to step far away from the existing walls for safe slope excavation, but would love to hear your opinion if I can start digging 1:1 starting just from the wall, or need to maintain some additional horizontal distance before sloping. The building is 44’x60′, posts embed is 5′, and I would love to have 25’x45′ basement there. The worry which the most reasonable contractor has is that when excavating 1:1 starting from the wall edge, it may be not enough soil left to keep posts in place. Your opinion would be greatly appreciated! Thank you, ADAM in ROCHESTER

DEAR ADAM: Rather than reliance upon any contractor, I would recommend you contact an expert. Google search for “Geotechnical Engineers near Rochester, MN”. There are several listed. They should be able to visit your building site and develop an approach to safely maximize your proposed partial basement space, without compromising structural integrity of your existing building, based upon actual soils at your site.  Any other approach is going to merely be a guess.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hi, I have a gambrel barn on the property I’m buying and am trying to figure out my options to configure it for my horses. I’m trying to find a structural engineer with some availability but in the meantime I wanted to ask for your opinion.It’s roughly 24′ x 32′. The side columns are spaced about 6′ and the ends have ~10′ door openings. I attempted to sketch it. I’d like to understand why the 4 center columns are clustered in the middle of the barn at 12′ from the ends and 6′ from the sides (the existing modular stalls are 12×12, not sure which came first). Is that normal spacing for a smaller building or gambrel style buildings? I’m guessing they are structural, but is there a chance they are just holding up the hay loft? Unfortunately I haven’t been up there yet to see what the trusses or rafters look like. Thanks for your insight! PAULA in WALDOBORO

DEAR PAULA: Taking an educated guess here – if columns are 6′ from each 32′ sidewall, then (without looking at your actual roof system) I would surmise they support not only loft, but also reach up to connect with pitch break of your gambrel roof. Even if they are only supporting building’s loft – they are then structural and should not be removed without review from a Registered Professional Engineer.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Planning to build a post frame house with an attached garage. Garage will sit perpendicular to the house, this giving me two different roof lines. My question is in where the endwall of the house and the sidewall of the garage meet. What does the endwall truss of the house attach to? I don’t believe the answer is having columns for the endwall and the sidewall. I assume they share a common column. Does the end truss run along the sidewall columns of the garage and I have to block beneath the truss for support? I have searched and searched for this online but have turned up empty handed. NUNTER in NASHVILLE

DEAR HUNTER: I will assume eave height of your garage is greater than eave height of house. Endwall truss of house will then be attached to face of sidewall columns of garage. In most instances, this truss can be designed with vertical webs to coincide with locations of columns other than at truss heels, allowing for adequate nailing to resist gravity loads. It may be necessary to have bearing blocks below truss heels, however all of these connections and required nails will be outlined on your engineer sealed structural building plans.

Should you be considering ordering a building from a provider other than Hansen Pole Buildings, make sure they are accounting for added weight of snow sliding off garage roof onto house, as well as unbalanced drift loads on each side of ridge lines (both of these are frequently overlooked by most providers).

 

 

 

Personal Storage, Additional Height, and Floor Plans

This week the Pole Barn Guru addresses a concern about personal items being ruined by storing them in an unfinished pole building, the need for an additional two feet of interior height, and floor plans for designing a post frame home.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello- not sure if you can answer this but hoping so. We have opportunity to rent a 20’x40′ portion of a pole barn building. The rent is very reasonable to we are considering moving all the contents of 3 storage units into this building, including small remodeling business with tools and materials. Question, it’s a brand new pole building, but the owner has not enclosed the soffit at the top. Will our stuff take get ruined in there? Moisture, hot and cold temperatures, mice, etc. Thinking it’s not an ideal place to put our furniture but wanted to ask a pole barn specialist. It’s such a good deal but I don’t want our belongings to get ruined. Thank you in advance for your opinion. DONNA in SUSSEX COUNTY

DEAR DONNA: Unless this unit is as close to completely sealed as possible (other than properly screened or very tiny openings venting) you should be prepared for all sorts of small critters and insects to be joining your valuable goods. My other concerns would be first as to if there is a well sealed vapor barrier under this building’s slab on grade. If not, there will be moisture coming through into your unit. Secondly – what sort of provision has been made to prevent condensation from occurring on underside of roof steel?

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a 40′ x 50′ x10′ pole barn, I need another 2′ in height, minimum. What is the best way to handle it? Thanks for your time JERRY in FRANKFORT

DEAR JERRY: There is only one correct way to achieve this – hire a Registered Professional Engineer who can design a structurally sound method to get to your end goal. Any other recommendation could likely result in a collapse.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hey Mike, we are planning to build a 40×60 pole barn home with the rear 20×60 portion being a second story. The main use of this space will be a 20×20 loft in the center of the building above the kitchen, with the remaining space being storage. We are trying to figure out what a necessary side wall/eave height will have to be for this second story loft with a 4/12 pitch roof. We don’t mind sacrificing a little bit of headroom upstairs since it will be a playroom for the kids. Could you help us with this? Also, this is assuming that we have an 8’ kitchen ceiling underneath. Thanks! NATE in TULSA

DEAR NATE: Thank you for reaching out to me. In most instances it will be less expensive to add more square footage on main level than to create a partial loft space (not to mention no space wasted due to stairs). Here is a guide to creating appropriate eave heights: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/05/how-tall-should-my-eave-height-be-for-two-stories/.

I would recommend you take advantage of our very affordable floor plan service in order to assist you in creation of your ideal dream floor plan: http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/post-frame-floor-plans/

Will My Minnesota Shouse Require Frost Footings?

Will My Minnesota Shouse Require Frost Footings?

Reader CHAD in JANESVILLE writes:

“I am planning on building a shouse or barndominium some may call. I am doing 5″ cement with a heated floor throughout. My hope was not to bury any poles but to anchor them on top of the slap. Do you recommend front footings or will I be same as long as I am heated?”

My lovely bride and I happen to live in a post frame shouse just four hours West of you (and you are welcome to come for a visit)! In our instance, we used embedded columns, as I fully believe they will outlive my grandchildren’s grandchildren (for reading on lifespan of properly pressure preservative treated wood https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/09/pressure-treated-post-frame-building-poles-rot/).

Now we do have a fair number of clients using wet set brackets, keeping their building columns above ground (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/05/sturdi-wall-plus-concrete-brackets/).

These brackets need to be either placed into a continuous footing and foundation system, a thickened edge slab on grade or concrete piers. Any of these should extend below frost line, unless provisions are made to thermally isolate them from effects of frost.

The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development Office of Policy Development and Research has been so kind as to publish a plethora of information on Frost-Protected Shallow Foundations, (while not specific to post frame construction) would apply to any structural building system. Heat transfer truly doesn’t care how you put a structure together, just so long as thermal resistance issues are taken care of adequately.

Those who are considering Frost-Protected Shallow Foundations should peruse this information: https://www.huduser.gov/publications/pdf/fpsfguide.pdf, and utilize it to determine requirements for insulation R values, as well as depth vertical insulation boards should be placed and width of horizontal insulation extending out from your building.

Whatever your choice is, you should have structural plans sealed by a Registered Professional Engineer to verify system adequacy.

Convert to Residence, Insulation, and Truss Spans

Today’s Pole Barn Guru addresses reader questions about building upgrades to convert to a residential use, how to best insulate a monitor style building, and the possibility of trusses spanning 40′ to eliminate interior posts in a shop/storage building.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: We bought a pole barn with no insulation, just studs and metal siding. We added faced batting insulation. But now we are thinking of making it a residential building. Do we need to remove the siding and put OSB and a vapor barrier house wrap on it? How do we refit this for a residence? KIMBERLY in COLUMBUS

DEAR KIMBERLY: No you do not have to add OSB and a Weather Resistant Barrier to your exterior walls.
Most pole barns are not designed to support wind and snow loads to extents required for residential applications – you should invest in services of a Registered Professional Engineer who can do a physical examination of your pole barn to determine structural adequacy and provide solutions for upgrades to make it safe for you to live in.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: This has been covered 1 million times but I wanted to reach out directly! I’m in North Carolina. I have a 30×50 pole barn with a 20×50 lean to off both sides. The lean tos are accessible from inside the main shop. So imagine one large open space. Lean to walls are 10’ rising to 14’. Main shop is 16’ rising to about 22’ at the peak. I have bubble wrap foil under the metal on the roof. Open 2×6 ceiling. 2×6 walls with nothing on them but metal. I will add interior wall coverings probably in the form of 7/16 osb. Concrete has vapor barrier.

Buildings with loftsNow, I’ve been told to do closed cell insulation on my walls 1” thick. I wanted an opinion on whether to go every inch of the walls top to bottom all the way to the roof? Would I benefit from the insulation at all by just going to the 10’ mark (my lowest wall height) because that’s as high as my interior osb is going anyway. I guess what I am asking is it any benefit to insulate closed cell up to 10’ mark from the floor and then just bubble foil the main shop above 10’ to give a finished look? THOMAS in PLEASANT HILL

DEAR THOMAS: Unless you are planning on some degree of climate control in your building, there would be no real reason to make an investment into closed cell spray foam. If controlling interior temperature is a goal, then spend your money on insulation in your roof/ceiling where over ¾ of your heat loss/gain is coming from, before spending money on wall insulation.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: We are looking to build a 40×90 pole barn, with 1/3rd being used for storage and 2/3rds for a vehicle maintenance. Both will be heated and storage cooled. Concrete floor, shingled roof, insulated, vertical metal siding, no windows, 5 overhead doors on the same side. Can you span the trusses from wall to wall and provide the above with no center columns? Thank you, ROD in CLEVELAND

DEAR ROD: Prefabricated metal connector plated wood trusses allow for some tremendous clearspan opportunities. We provide fully engineered post frame buildings with clearspans up to (and in some instances beyond) 80 feet. Your 40 foot width can quite easily be accommodated without any interior columns. One of our Building Designers will be reaching out to you Monday to further discuss your building needs.

 

Driver Bits, a Big Room, and Overhead Door Space

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers questions about driver bits, the ability to build one big room, and the ability to place a 14′ tall overhead garage door in a building with 14′ sidewalls.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU:   Just read a post you had in 2013 that Hansen supplier uses high quality screws. Getting ready to order building from Hansen in next couple days. I need to get a nutdriver for drill. Do you happen to know nutdriver size used? Rather buy what I need instead of whole set. Thanks for your help. BOB in POWHATAN

DEAR BOB: Thank you so much, we are looking forward to assisting you throughout your building journey! This excerpt from our Hansen Pole Buildings’ Construction Manual should get you heading forward:

Screws have 1/4” hex-heads. Hansen Buildings recommends purchasing several Master Surface Magnetic Drive bits (available through Hansen Buildings). Alternate bit brands may damage screws’ powder coating.

HELPFUL HINT: Buy extra Master Surface Magnetic Drive bits as they do wear out. Usually a bit will do 750-1000 screws. If you have extras and have unopened packages, they can be returned for full credit. This is much cheaper than having to make an extra trip (or trips!) to a hardware store.

Under no circumstance use drive bits from Ryobi, Black and Decker or Ridgid, as they WILL damage screw heads.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Can I build one big room with insulated roof? TONYA in MONTGOMERY

DEAR TONYA: Absolutely you can. Fully engineered post frame (pole) buildings are nearly always designed to entirely clearspan – giving you flexibility to place interior walls wherever best fits your needs, or to have no walls at all! In my own personal shouse (shop/house) our 40’ x 60’ living area is entirely open other than a 20’ x 32’ master bedroom suite.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Building a 40×60 pole barn and wanting 14 foot side walls. Putting overhead door at one end. Need door 14 x 14 to accommodate ag machinery entrance.
My question, can this be done using scissor trusses?
Thanks. BILL in ROCKFORD

Hansen Buildings TaglineDEAR BILL: While it can be done, it is going to take adding quite a bit to your roof slope (for practical purposes, whatever slope you gain inside, has to be added to exterior). In order to fit in your door, you will need to have roughly 15’6″ from grade at edge of door. This is going to entail a bottom chord slope of roughly 2.5/12 with an exterior slope of 6/12.

There are some less expensive options and they will give you full use of your building from wall to wall with anything fitting vertically through your door.

Increase eave height to 16’6″ – use standard truss. This leaves plenty of roof for standard hardware tracks and an opener.

Increase eave height to 15′, high lift door up inside of endwall 4′ and ‘park’ door between endwall and first pair of trusses at 12′ back from endwall. This option will not work if you are planning on installing a ceiling.

One of our Building Designers will be reaching out to you to further discuss your building needs and objectives.

Post Rot Concerns, Floor Plan Adaptation, and a Net Zero House

This Monday the Guru answers questions about post rot due to pouring quickcrete below the posts, adapting post frame to floor plans, and running plumbing and electrical a super insulated post frame house.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I just got done building a pole barn. A task that’s a lot harder than I thought. My question is about a concrete collar I poured around the post. I used one bag of quickcrete but instead of pouring it at the bottom of the post I poured it about 6”- 12” below surface. Will this cause any rot on the poles? HEATH in NEW BOSTON
Photos: https://hansenpolebuildings.com/uploads/polebarnquestions/080c46220747e1ab736046782d778c94.png

DEAR HEATH: As long as your building’s embedded columns are rated to UC-4B it is unlikely to contribute to premature decay. I would question reliance upon a single bag of premix to resist overturning, uplift and settlement. In most cases I would expect column embedment to be holes entirely backfilled with concrete – however you should refer to your building’s engineer sealed plans and adhere to, or exceed their requirements.

Some of your building erection challenge could be due to lack of stability from minimal concrete in holes.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Can your pole barn customs designs be adapted to this floor plan? https://www.eplans.com/plan/2720-square-feet-3-bedroom-2-50-bathroom-0-garage-sp166418 (cut and paste into your browser, you will see the plans by scrolling down) Thank you! LISA in SANTA ROSA BEACH

DEAR LISA: This is a fairly popular floor plan and is easily adapted for post frame construction (as are most floor plans). You can have dimensions adjusted for length, width or height to best fit your family’s wants and needs. One of our Building Designers will be reaching out to you shortly.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am interested in building a super insulated, possibly net zero, post frame house. I am intrigued by the wall construction proposed by the Barn Guru in this post: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/01/net-zero-post-frame-homes/

However, I am baffled by how the plumbing and particularly the electrical would be run. Would you rout out the rigid foam board for the junction boxes? If so, would they be attached to the girts or would the rigid foam board be their only support? I assume you would tape and seal around and in the box for air infiltration. Or are you just forgoing electrical outlets in the exterior walls all together? Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks. DAVID in ANN ARBOR

DEAR DAVID: Ideally you always want to avoid plumbing in exterior walls in any cooler climate. The fewer holes through the rigid insulation the better, as it leaves fewer points to be taped and sealed. Switch and outlet boxes vary in depth from 1-1/2 to 3-1/2″ inches. If you can find the deeper ones, you can screw them onto wall girts or columns. Old work boxes do not work because the screws are not long enough to allow their retention tabs to reach the inside of the rigid insulation.

Textrafine Insulation, New Steel on Old Steel, and a Residential Conversion

This Monday the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about wall insulation and moisture barrier choices, New Steel on top of old steel, and advice on how to find an engineer to convert an existing shop into a residence.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I wrapped my post frame with double bubble with silver foil on both sides and then put my metal on, going to use Textrafine unfaced insulation and then steel lining walls. Do you see a problem with this? CHARLES in MONROEVILLE

DEAR CHARLES: I would normally have recommended use of a Weather Resistant Barrier (Tyvek or similar) between framing and siding in order to allow walls to dry to outside. Assuming your radiant reflective barrier is properly sealed, you will want to make certain your wall system can exhaust any moisture (dry) to building interior and make provisions to exhaust excess moisture.

For those who are unfamiliar with Textrafine®, here is some extended reading: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/01/insulation-8/

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My pole building was built in the 1950’s with 2-1/2″ galvanized ribbed metal sheeting nailed on with leaded 1-1/2 screw nails which is now somewhat leaking. I can find that profile metal from RP Lumber. Can I directly screw new metal onto existing metal. I intend to insulate and finish the inside of building. Will the two metals together cause any problems such as condensation? RICHARD in PEKIN

DEAR RICHARD: Due to protruding nails from your existing roof, I would not recommend trying to apply new roofing directly over your old roofing. You would be far ahead to remove your old roofing, this would also allow for an effective condensation control to be placed between framing and roofing. You could also go to an entirely different roofing profile, if desired.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have an existing pole building with a concrete floor. I wanted to turn it into a living space. I called my local planning/permitting dept. the person that is head of area planning said I can do this but only if I have it certified by an engineer. She did add in that she had no idea who would do this kind of work but she thinks it would be expensive. I can’t figure out what I am too certify. The building or my drawings nor can I locate an engineer in my area. I have been told that there are a lot of buildings here that have been converted to a home I just can’t find anyone who has done so it is difficult to get any information. You would think planning could guide me but they don’t have the knowledge so I’m reaching out to anyone who has went through this in the state of Indiana and may know the laws. Thanks in advance. KIM in METAMORA

DEAR KIM: Most existing pole buildings are not structurally adequate for residential purposes, unless they were specifically designed and engineered for R-3 (residential) use. Your Building Official is prudent in requiring you to have a Registered Professional Engineer review your building for structural adequacy. This engineer can also advise you of any non-conforming points, as well as how to resolve them.

A good source of how to find an experienced post frame engineer is through NFBA’s website (NFBA is National Frame Building Association) directory: https://associationdatabase.com/aws/NFBA/pt/sp/directory

 

 

 

A Future House, Eave Height, and Pricing for Horse Arena

This Monday the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about an ideal pole barn to convert into a house, the height of the exterior wall with an 11′ interior ceiling height, how clear span affects the costs of a horse arena.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Good Morning, We just put in an offer on land in Chattaroy, WA. The parcel number is 39261.0106.  Ideally, we will like to build a pole barn structure and then convert it into a house. I was wondering if you offered a service where someone could inspect the land to make sure it was buildable for this sort of structure. 

Also, do you offer a military and/or teacher discount (I work at DPMS… can’t hurt to ask, right!). We have 20 days to get the testing done. I appreciate your time and your response!
Have a great day! EMILY in CHATTAROY

DEAR EMILY: We have provided our fully engineered custom designed post frame buildings on virtually every imaginable type of building site in all 50 states. As Eastern Washington’s largest post frame building contractor in the 1990’s, my firm erected hundreds of buildings annually in Spokane County, many in Chattaroy. Unless you have a truly unusual circumstance, a post frame (pole barn) structure should be ideal for this parcel. We would recommend you have it permitted as a R-3 (residential) use structure so you do not have future challenges.

Hopefully your offer is subject to being able to pass a perc test for a future septic system, as if anything would be a stumbling point, this could be it.

Please reach out to me any time with questions.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: If my ceiling is 11′ tall, how tall are my outside side walls to the bottom of the eve? GREG in COLUMBUS

DEAR GREG: Depending upon your building’s truss span, in most instances a 12 foot tall eave height will get you an 11 foot finished ceiling. Here is some extended reading on this subject https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/02/eave-height-2/.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I know the width of a pole barn has a drastic impact on price but does the increase in price go up steadily or are there certain widths that jump the price up more drastically?

I am planning to build a horse back riding arena and am deciding between the following widths: 60′ vs 66′ vs 70′ vs 72′ vs 80′

I know from 60′ to 80′ there is a huge jump in price (about $30,000 roughly based on the quotes I’ve gotten so far), but does it go up equally for each step up in size? Does being a multiple of 12′ vs 10′ make a difference? SARA in DAYTON

DEAR SARA: Our oldest daughter Bailey is a highly successful Walking Horse trainer in Shelbyville, Tennessee. She is having a new home constructed currently on acreage and had asked Dad to check out arena prices for her. I priced 60′ x 120′, 70′ x 140′ and 80′ x 160′ buildings, all with identical features. Surprisingly to me, they were all within pennies per square foot of being equal! Being as you are in a more snow sensitive area, I would suspect your pricing curve to have more of a gradual increase as spans increase from 60 feet.

In order to get some exact figures, a Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer will be reaching out to you. Our system has an ability to adjust column and truss spacing to provide a most economical design solution at any span. Meanwhile – here is some extended reading for you https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/07/the-perfect-indoor-riding-arena/.

 

 

 

 

Meeting Barndominium Perimeter Slab Insulation Requirements

Meeting Barndominium Perimeter Slab Insulation Requirements

Our world (at least my world) of post frame buildings has evolved quickly into residential construction of barndominiums, shouses (shop/houses) and post frame homes. Having built two shouses for myself, I have learned a lot about what to do and not to do, as well as receiving helpful contributions from thousands upon thousands of loyal readers such as JOE in BEDFORD who writes:
“Long time reader, first time poster. I’m in the middle of planning & prepping to build a post frame house (48′ x 60′ x 10′) for myself & I have some basic questions on how
to meet both the IRC & IECC codes for the foundation/floor systems. In PA (climate Zone 5) how is it possible to continuously insulate the “footings” (down 3′ – 4′) of my barndominium to prevent frost heave/moisture intrusion/etc? Wouldn’t that require digging a continuous “footing” thus defeating the main purpose of a post frame design?

To add to that thought, most “floors” of post frame houses are slab on grade concrete (with radiant heat in slab I assume), which to meet the IECC code for a heated on grade slab, it requires R-15 down 2′ on the slab edge (plus R-10 for the underslab insulation). See link below:
https://www.phrc.psu.edu/assets/docs/Webinars/SlabInsulation.pdf

>From my understanding, the savings & efficiency of post frame houses comes from not having to excavate, pour & then backfill a continuous footer + stem wall (or footer with a slab on grade floor). How is it possible to meet these challenges & codes with a post frame design method? If you have to excavate a continuous footing & then insulate the footing & the house floor is going to be insulated & poured either way, wouldn’t the “stick frame” method be more cost effective at that point then?

Thanks for the help & clarification!”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Appreciate your being a long time reader, hopefully you have found my articles to be informative and entertaining.

Thanks to glories of rigid board insulation, you can still do standard embedded columns, pour a slab on grade and meet insulation requirements to prevent both frost heave and to keep from having to heat ground outside and underneath your building (see drawing). Requirements for insulation and thickness can be found here: https://www.huduser.gov/publications/pdf/fpsfguide.pdf.

Even if you were to opt to pour a continuous footing, post frame construction will still prove to be more cost effective due to elimination of redundant members and structural headers inherent to stick construction. Post frame is easier to super insulate (fewer members touch both exterior and interior surfaces), you can create some unique architectural features not easily done with stick frame construction and you can easily DIY it should you be so inclined.

Making Framing Work With Bookshelf Girts

Making Framing Work With Bookshelf Girts for Insulation

A most simple method to achieve a deep insulation cavity in post frame building walls is to use bookshelf girts, but how to make framing work?

Some quick background reading on commercial girts: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/09/commercial-girts-what-are-they/.

Reader BRANDON in ST. JOE got today’s discussion going when he wrote:

“Hi there. I’m going to be building a post frame house and got a quote form Hansen for my building. Question is with the bookshelf Girts if they are 2x8s which measures 7 1/4” on 6×6 post that is 5 1/2” plus your 1 1/2” grade board will you notice the 1/4” difference.”

In an ideal dream world every 6×6 column would measure exactly 5-1/2 inches square. However lumber comes from trees, and trees are organic and tend to have a certain degree of variability. Rarely are timbers going to be dried after being milled, other than by nature. As such, they most usually start off being cut slightly over-sized in order to allow for shrinkage hopefully ending up with a 5-1/2 inch dimension.

I have seen builders attempt to use 2×6 bookshelf girts with 6×6 columns, if posts are perfect dimension then both sides can be set flush and surfaces for siding and interior finish are smooth. It does involve some extra work insetting things like splash planks, eave girts, headers, etc., as well.

I tried this in my own garage I had built in 1991. My posts were not perfect dimension, they were big! I had to stop drywall up against each column and then texture over posts. Trust me, it was a PITA (Pain In The Axx).

An easy fix – oversize girts by one dimension, using a 2×8 with a 6×6 column as an example. Chances are excellent columns will measure 5-3/4 inches in depth or less. If less, drywall (or other interior finish such as OSB or plywood) can be run directly across thinner columns with no adverse challenges.

I would recommend using closed cell rigid insulation sheets inside of framing, behind drywall, to create a thermal break.

Properly Treated Posts, Hillside Locations, and a Post Frame Option

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers questions about properly treated posts, building on hillside locations, and an option to build with post frame.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: According to most of the answers on the Internet, if I bury the posts for my deck they will rot away and the whole thing will come crashing down 10 or so years. What proprietary space-age technology are you using in your pole barns that deck builders don’t know about?
(yes this is a bit tongue-in-cheek) MM in MILTON

DEAR MM: How about we start with over 50% of all builders did not graduate from high school? The great majority of deck builders call in, text or email the lumber list for the next deck to their supplier of choice. I worked in or owned my own lumber yards for years and never, ever can I recall a builder specifying a level of treatment when they ordered pressure preservative treated wood.

Builder says treated, and he gets treated….probably not adequate for most applications. Any lumber placed structurally into the ground should be treated to a minimum UC-4B retention. I wrote this article for Rural Builder magazine, so it is directed specifically towards builders and suppliers, however it should make my point: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/05/building-code-3/.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a hillside location and am looking for information on pole housing in California and their seismic ratings? ROBIN in SAN DIMAS

DEAR ROBIN: San Dimas – the town Bill and Ted made famous! Post frame (pole) buildings perform admirably on hillsides, as they can be attached to partial foundations (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/02/grade-change/) or built on stilts (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/09/stilt-houses/) to compensate for grade changes.

As far as seismic design, structures are affected by earthquake in relationship to the weight of the structure. The lighter the structure, the more resistant it is to tremors! Here is a little earthquake reading: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/10/a-whole-lotta-shakin-going-on/ and https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/05/earthquake-resistant-post-frame-construction/.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am in the engineering phase of our forever home in Minnetonka. I have an architect drafting my designs, and am now working with structural engineers to figure out the best way to construct it. My original plans show double stud 2×4 walls (for super insulation), and our ceiling heights are on the tall side.

An option we are considering is getting the house pole framed for the interior stud wall, and then site framing the exterior stud wall, in order to create the cavity for super insulating. I also plan to use an interior ledger system for the floor joists.

Let me know if you think this is a possibility. I can send you our current drawings for you to look at. There are obviously a lot more details to sift through than what I’ve covered in this email.

Let me know! Thanks! SONJA in MINNETONKA

DEAR SONJA: One of the great features about investing in a post frame building kit package (at least from Hansen Pole Buildings) is it includes the engineered structural plans for your new home – no need to pay an expensive structural engineer!

Installing Drywall on CeilingThere is probably a much easier way to achieve your super insulated walls – using post frame construction and ‘commercial’ bookshelf style girts, you can create a deep wall insulation cavity for one or a combination of the following: unfaced fiberglass or rock wool (best since it is not effected by moisture) batts; BIBs (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/11/bibs/); and/or closed cell spray foam. Between the inside of the framing and the wallboard, use high R insulation board, which creates a thermal break between and wall framing and the interior conditioned space.

We’d be pleased to assist you in your project.

 

 

 

 

Hangar to House?

This article was triggered by an article I read recently by Karen L. Chandler at www.readingeagle.com in regards to a post frame building in Perry County, PA., excerpted below:

In other business, attorney Zachary A. Morey of Hoffert & Konis PC of Reading asked the supervisors to consider allowing an addition to Peter Lombardi’s pole building on Skyline Drive. The proposed addition would be used as a residence by Lombardi’s father.

Body noted the pole building was previously used as an airplane hangar, but Morey said it was now used for storage and as a part-time residence.

 Supervisors Chairman Dean A. Adam said the pole building was never intended to be a residence and questioned why Lombardi could not build a house on the site.

 “It was not disclosed to us what he’s doing until he did it. He’s defrauding us.” Adam said, adding that the property was not assessed as a residence for tax purposes.

Morey said Lombardi had gotten an occupancy permit for the building in 2001, but Shollenberger said if the building is permitted as a hangar, it could not be converted to residential use.

 Body asked Morey to provide documentation confirming the tax assessment on the property is accurate and said the property should be inspected to ensure it is appropriate for a dwelling before an addition is approved.”

Unless the hangar was to be used commercially, it is most likely designed at a Risk Occupancy I building (and probably constructed without engineered plans). Residences require a Risk Occupancy II which has more stringent requirements for resisting climactic loads.

There are more than good chances the hangar was not designed with trusses capable of supporting a significant ceiling load (like gypsum wallboard) or walls stiff enough to support drywall without cracking.

Structurally, albeit with some possible modification, a RDP (Registered Design Professional – architect or engineer) could review the original plans and make a determination as to the repairs necessary to properly upgrade the building. This will probably also involve acquiring an engineered truss repair from the truss manufacturer. If a dead attic space is created, then ventilation must be attended to. Energy codes must also be addressed. It is possible these fixes could involve some significant expenses.

Now this does not even begin to tackle the question of whether or not the property happens to be residentially zoned.

How can you avoid these challenges with your new post frame building?

Design appropriately as a Risk Category II building, framed ready for sheetrocked walls and ceiling, with the appropriate ventilation and provisions to be insulated. The minor up front investment makes this route the road to race down!