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Bonus Ask the Guru: Repeat Client, Wet-Set Brackets, and Knee Braces

Today’s blog is a bonus Ask the Guru, where the PBG answers reader questions from a repeat client about converting a stick frame plan to post and beam, a multiple tenant building built on a ledge site using wet-set brackets, and the need for knee braces on a “stick built pole barn.”

DEAR POLE BARN GURU:

Good Morning Mike, You may remember that I purchased a 30×36 pole barn kit in 2022, and had a really good experience with Hansen. We’re planning to build our house on the same property, and I have questions: We plan to modify this house plan to fit the site: https://www.houseplans.net/floorplans/96300579/lake-front-plan-3017-square-feet-2-4-bedrooms-2-bathrooms. Our site has over 6 feet of slope from front to rear with great views out the back windows. The site cries out for at least the back of the house to have a walk-out basement, but we don’t want a full basement, so most of the house would be on conventional crawl space foundation. The plans call for stick-built, but I see potential for post-beam construction using laminated columns. My question is, can we save enough money doing post-beam and commercial girts to overcome the other hurdles involved? The hurdles I see are finding a suitable contractor to build such a complicated post-beam since it’s limited to pole barns around here. And I expect to finance about half the cost, and I wonder if I’ll have skepticism at the bank. In any case, I’ll be needing some really long deck columns, and I wonder if you’d like to supply those?

Thanks, and I still love my Hansen building. ANDY in OXFORD

DEAR ANDY: You remain as one of my all-time favorite clients!

You would not have to pour a conventional crawl space, we can provide it in post frame and if you have enough grade change, can provide a permanent wood foundation, between columns, for portions with either a crawl space or a walkout basement.

Since you last built, we have added our own wholesale lumberyard and truss manufacturing facility, so we can provide some amazingly high quality materials, at competitive pricing. We can also provide glulaminated columns up to 52 feet long. We also are developing an extensive independent builder network, so we may be able to assist you with a contractor as well.

While post frame itself will run around 10% less than stick above ground, you will save thousands (if not tens) of dollars in concrete and forming costs. As to financing – you are building a custom designed, wood frame home. Lenders only seem to be baffled if you mention the term “barndominium”.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: We want to put up a commercial building with multiple tenant spaces approximately 50′ x 150′. Our improves will be completed the first week of March. We’re currently getting a price on a red iron building but are afraid it’s way out of our price range. My question is our side has a great deal of ledge, some will blasted to a depth of 4′ to allow us to install utilities. Can a post frame building be built on ledge? Thank you TED in HARWINTON

DEAR TED: Post frame buildings can be built upon ledge. By using a concrete pier foundation, with wet set brackets, piers unable to be dug to frost depth, can be pinned to your bedrock with epoxied in rebars (depending upon depth of soil to ledge, rebars may not even be needed). Without question, this has to be a much more affordable design solution than trying to engineer a foundation for a red iron building.

 

Pole Barn Knee BracesDEAR POLE BARN GURU: We are having a 42x80x18 stick built pole barn being built this summer and I was wondering about the knee braces are they or are they not needed? Especially if it is a stick built on a concrete foundation. The barn will be running in a east to west direction with a 24×16 overhead door on the west side. Does it matter if there is or is not a metal ceiling put into the barn? We will also have a 2 foot overhang on all sides. M in OLBERDING

DEAR M: Stick built buildings are not pole barns. By Code, stick frame buildings with walls over 12′ high, truss spans over 36′ or lengths over 60′ must be designed by a Registered Professional Engineer. Your engineer will determine if knee braces are required or not. I would recommend you consider an actual post frame building, as it will be more economical.

This entry was posted in Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning, Post Frame Home, Barndominium, Concrete, Footings, Building Interior, Budget, Professional Engineer, Lumber, Pole Barn Questions, Columns, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Homes and tagged , , , , , on by .

Knee Braces in Post-Frame Buildings

Knee Braces in Post-Frame Buildings With Diaphragm-Action Design

Long time readers will recall several articles by me in regards to knee bracing, including this one: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/01/post-frame-construction-knee-braces/

May 2023’s Frame Builder magazine (official NFBA magazine) published an article by Dimitry Reznik, P.E. and Dr. Kifle Gebremedhin specifically regarding knee braces in post-frame buildings with diaphragm action (full text can be read here: http://associationdatabase.co/NFBA/May2023/?page=16).

Here are their conclusions and recommendations:

“In the 5 buildings analyzed in this study, knee braces produced inconsistent results. Knee braces may increase or decrease horizontal eave deflection, load demand on the diaphragm, and stress unity in the posts.

Modeling knee bracing within a post-frame building is complex. The complexity extends to the roof-truss design because the truss design must include the knee brace reaction forces, The building designer is responsible for reviewing truss drawings and verify that knee brace loads are applied correctly, and that correct governing load combinations are applied while the truss designer must incorporate the load impact of the knee brace into the component design.

In all buildings with knee braces, posts were subjected to additional bending stresses under gravity loads. This behavior was more pronounced in buildings with long truss spans.

Knee braces should not be added to a building if knee braces are not specified in the design documents. Knee braces should not be specified in the design documents unless their effects on the building are considered by structural analysis.

Knee braces may benefit buildings with certain geometrical configurations and loading conditions where diaphragm action is not enough. It is recommended that the building designer first check the need for knee bracing when diaphragm action is included in the design. In the building analyzed herein, however, knee braces did not produce a consistent advantage in any of the relevant metrics of design. The stiffer frames did not consistently translate to a stronger or more efficient design. The results were mixed and highly dependent on relative stiffness of the primary frame and diaphragm.”

In layperson’s terms – knee braces should only be incorporated in fully engineered post-frame buildings where truss designs also incorporate forces imposed by said knee braces.

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Clip-Lock Standing Seam, Adding a Ceiling, and Knee Brace Issues

This week Mike the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about replacing roofing with clip-lock standing seam and what the PBG recommends in the scenario, creating a wood shop in an existing structure and wondering if ceiling weight can be held, the possibility of removing knee braces in order to install a ceiling.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am leaning toward replacing with clip lock standing seam on 2×4 purlins every foot on center. My installer wants to do away with the vapor barrier and stretch synthetic underlayment over the purlins. What do you recommend in this scenario? JAVO in PRINCE FREDERICK

DEAR JAVO: Clip lock standing seam panels have no ability to transfer wind shear loads and should only be installed over 5/8″ CDX plywood sheathing. If not, your building is likely to rack (or even fail) due to wind loads. There are other reasons to use sheathing: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/08/standing-seam-steel/ In summary remove vapor barrier, install plywood with synthetic underlayment between plywood and standing seam steel.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, I have an existing pole barn/garage but I have very little information about it. I would like to create an interior room for a woodshop but I don’t know if my trusses would support a ceiling and the necessary insulation. Is this something you can help with? CHAD in GRASS LAKE

Installing a ceilingDEAR CHAD: Unlike all Hansen Pole Buildings with spans of 40 foot or less (where we have our interior double trusses always designed to be able to support at least a minimal ceiling load of five pounds per square foot), most pole barn trusses are not ordered or designed to support any sort of a ceiling. Many times trusses will have a stamp on them stating truss spacing and loads, if so, you want a Bottom Chord Dead Load of 5 psf or greater. If nothing else, truss manufacturer’s stamp will tell you who fabricated those trusses and you can reach out to them to verify adequacy. If they do not have records available, or are no longer in business, you should engage a Registered Professional Engineer to perform a field inspection to verify adequacy, or to provide an engineered repair.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a 30′ x 48′ x12′ pole barn that has Knee braces. I am wondering if I am able to remove the knee braces on this type of rafter to eliminate having to cut around each one as I am installing interior liner steel. The rafter top chord is 2×10, the bottom chord and webs are 2×6 and the rafters are adjoined to the poles appx 30′ below the bottom chord. The rafters have fink style webs. JOSH in CANBY

DEAR JOSH: In fairly recently built pole barns, I would have encouraged you to reach out to whomever originally engineered your building. Your building obviously has been around (somehow) for more than a few years. I say this “somehow” in all seriousness as your roof system does look questionable. It very well could be compromised by any changes – even weight of steel liner panels. Best bet is this – hire an engineer to do an actual physical examination of your building to determine if knee braces can be removed, any structural changes needed if they are to be removed, as well as adequacy to support any sort of ceiling. Think of this as an investment, rather than an expense, especially if it prevents a failure.

This entry was posted in Pole Buildings History, Trusses, Rebuilding Structures, Building Interior, Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Roofing Materials, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Engineering an Open Pavilion

Engineering an Open Pavilion

Professional Engineer KEN in AIRVILLE writes:

“Working on engineering a post frame equipment open pavilion 28×48. Only has 2 posts on the front wall and big ass flat girder for a header. See attached plans. I have done them all different ways before I a structural engineer who grew up at my father’s sawmill and been in the engineering and framing for 30+ years. Been reading your blogs especially all the info on knee braces. I agree the skin gives you 90% of lateral capacity over embedded posts or knee braces. But that is pretty much all we have to use on an open structure. I didn’t really want to use buried posts for longevity but may be best for lateral capacity. I only have 2 columns in the front holding the roof up so I wanted to come out of the ground with a big ole concrete pier in case it ever got impacted. Would love to discuss post frame design theory with you. One of your guys used to be a truss designer also I read somewhere. I know that industry very well been in it my entire life. Have a great day.”

Mike the Pole Barn says:

Thank you for reaching out and for forwarding your draft plans.

I was in ownership or management of prefabricated wood truss facilities for over two decades, in my “past” life.

Unless there is some strong objection, embedded columns are probably going to provide your best design solution, as well as being easiest to construct. You will want to specify UC-4B for treatment, as this should assure a lifespan greater than our grandchildren’s grandchildren.

If bracket mounts end up being your solution, look at using Sturdi-wall Plus brackets, as they have a far greater moment resisting capacity than do Simpson products and have an ICC-ESR approval.

I would look at placing low side columns every 12′, using a pair of trusses ganged together and notched into columns, with 2x purlins recessed between top chords, in Simpson hangers.

On high side, parallel chord flat trusses could be used for your ‘beam’, also notched into columns. Mono truss top chords could be run across top of trussed beam and look at making connection between mono trusses and beam a fairly stiff one.

Explore using full length treated glu-lam columns, without knee braces. Your knee bracing challenge is two-fold – you have to deal with forces being put into trusses by knee brace and toughest – coming up with a connection adequate to be able to transfer those forces. Your column sizes will be dictated by L/d ratio, so even if your knee braces were to work in the direction of truss span, you still have slenderness in length of building. It looks to me like a 6 ply 2×8 glulam from Rigidply (7″ x 8-1/16″) should be capable in both directions.

In order to not void roof steel paint warranty, look at a roof slope of 3/12 with an Integral Condensation Control factory applied to prevent condensation drippage.

The NFBA has available a Non-Diaphragm Design Guide (https://www.nfba.org/aws/NFBA/pt/sd/product/14888/_PARENT/layout_details/false), it may prove helpful for this project.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, About The Pole Barn Guru, Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Planning, Professional Engineer and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Post Frame Knee Bracing in Ohio

Post-Frame Knee Bracing in Ohio

Reader DON in TALLMADGE writes:

“I recently purchased plans for a 32×32 pole building and the trusses are 2×4 and the building supplier did not include knee bracing included in the original plans but the county said they need to be added. Are these really a benefit and do I need them?”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru says: 

A knee brace is an inclined diagonal lumber member connecting to and extending from sidewall columns, usually several feet below truss to column connection, across and attached to truss faces. They are intended to supplement lateral resistance of post frames when loaded by lateral wind forces.

Pole Barn Knee Braces

Knee bracing’s intent is noble – to supplement resistance of post frames (columns along with aligned roof trusses create a post frame) under lateral (wind) loads. They can influence unsupported column length, as (when reduced) column is reduced, it is less prone to buckle.

Pole building frames, prior to installation of roofing and siding, tend to be very flexible. It is steel cladding or sheathing making the building stiff. It would not be unheard of to stand at the top, center of a framed up only building and be able to rock building six to eight inches! Adding knee braces at this point of construction will stiffen the frame and act as a temporary brace.

Knee brace effectiveness is highly dependent on stiffness of connections to post and truss. If brace end connections are flexible or not very stiff due to use of few fasteners, roof diaphragm carries the bulk of load and the brace is ineffective. If brace connections are made very stiff (by installing many nails or bolts) brace could effectively resist wind loading, but overload truss.

Knee braces induce bending moments in truss chords. If used in a post-frame design, load sharing among truss, post, knee brace, connections and roof diaphragm must be included in structural analysis.

Johnston and Curtis, in 1984, performed actual testing on post frame buildings with and without knee braces. They concluded, “As loads were increased, the effect of the knee bracing became insignificant.” This study found knee bracing in post frame buildings provides very little support for horizontal loads. Two years later, as a result of their studies, Gebremedian and Woeste concluded, “Knee braces added little stiffness to the post-frame building analyzed.”

In a presentation to International Conference of Timber Engineering in 1988, Jerry Barbera (then chief engineer for International Conference of Building Officials’ Pacific Northwest office) stated, “When the knee brace is placed on the truss at random the truss will experience considerable stress.”. Further, he said, “Thus the truss designer has to know what the extraneous forces are in order to design for their effects. Both designers have to communicate with each other”.

Walker and Woeste’s 1992 book Post Frame Design states, “Knee braces appear to be a “no-win” solution.”

In all likelihood, pole buildings being proposed as utilizing knee braces are a result of lack of knowledge upon building provider. Knee braces add no benefit to overall structural strength, while potentially adding loads into roof trusses they were not designed to carry. In a right combination of circumstances, this could result in a catastrophic building failure.

Your issue with your local Building Official stems from plans being submitted for permit having included knee braces. 2019’s Ohio Residential Code does require knee bracing to be used for any non-engineered post frame building in Section 328.6. Should you desire to eliminate knee braces, you would need to resubmit plans without knee braces, sealed by a Registered Professional Ohio Engineer.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Trusses, Professional Engineer and tagged , , , , on by .

Do I Need Any Additional Vapor Barrier?

Do I Need Any Additional Vapor Barrier?

Reader TOM in NEW LONDON writes:

“Have a 40 x 60 pole barn which I have poured a 20 X 60 6″ concrete floor with radiant heat. I have installed 1 1/2″ R 7.5 rigid pink board between the 2 X 6 side boards against the steel. I will be installing R 19 kraft faced insulation in the 2 x 6 side walls and R 38 kraft faced insulation in the ceiling. The area above the ceiling insulation is completely open to the roof.  Eaves soffit is vented. Do I need any additional vapor barrier? Have I done anything wrong?
Thank you.”

Some basic commentary, from your photo, to begin with. I obviously do not have the benefit of having your building’s engineered plans or sealed truss drawings to reference, so some of my commentary will be based upon best guesses.

I would sincerely doubt your building’s roof trusses have been designed to support loads induced into them from knee braces. Please read more in regards to this subject here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/01/post-frame-construction-knee-braces/. Your first step should be to contact the truss manufacturer to verify ability of your building’s trusses to withstand loads from knee braces. With an assumption trusses were not so designed, second step will be to contact the engineer who designed your building to find out if your building will still be structurally sound with knee braces removed. If, by some chance, an engineer was not engaged to produce your building plans, a competent one should be retained to do an analysis of your situation.

Any lumber in contact with concrete needs to be pressure preservative treated – this would include plates between columns and bottom plate of your framed stud wall. You really do not want to have these boards decay within finished walls.

If you do not have a well-sealed vapor barrier beneath your concrete slab-on-grade, you need to use a good sealant over top of it.

Moving forward, to your question at hand. In order to install kraft faced batts along your building’s sidewalls, you will need to add additional framing. Most folks place another set of wall girts upon column insides. If so, in your case, then R 19 batts are not going to be adequate – as they will leave an air gap between batts and pink board. My recommendation would be to use BIBs (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/11/bibs/) in walls, with a vapor barrier to inside face of framing before adding the finished wall material. To get best thermal performance, a layer of closed cell foam insulation board can be glued to wall framing inside, then glue gypsum wallboard (sheetrock) or your choice of other products to insulation boards. This inner layer of foam board, if joints are sealed, will act as your vapor barrier. Have your building engineer confirm your building walls will be stiff enough to keep drywall joints from cracking.

Now – roof system. Before adding a ceiling, verify your building’s roof trusses will support this added weight. Most post frame building trusses will not! Trusses should have a minimum bottom chord dead load of five psf (pounds per square foot) to support framing and drywall. Your building does not have a vapor barrier between roof purlins and roof steel. Only cure for this now will be to have two or more inches of closed cell foam insulation sprayed to the underside. If you fail to do this, you will have moisture/condensation issues in your attic. You also do not want to have a vapor barrier in your ceiling line – so kraft faced batts are out. I’d recommend 15-20 inches of blown in fiberglass insulation. Make sure to not block air intake from soffits. If your ridge cap isn’t currently vented, it needs to be.

 

Tom could have avoided a great deal of pain and expense had he and his building provider been communicating in regards to climate controlling this structure. Unfortunately, most post frame building kit suppliers and contractors are focused only upon providing a low price, instead of best design solution for their clients.

 

 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Trusses, Ventilation, Insulation and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Spot Problems with This Pole Barn Photo

Spot Problems With This Pole Barn Photo

One of my Facebook friends had posted this as a timeline photo as it brought back to her fond memories of a childhood spent frolicking in hay lofts. It was so bad, I just had to save it.

So, what’s wrong with this photo anyhow?

Obviously bird excrement over everything does not pose a structural problem, but one which I would have been trying to minimize, if not avoid. One thing which was leading birds into building – excellent nesting material provided by what was once a vinyl faced fiberglass condensation control blanket (aka Metal Building Insulation).

Long ago I had espoused about joys (or lack thereof) involved in installation of Metal Building Insulation (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/11/metal-building-insulation-in-pole-buildings-part-i/). For those of you readers who did not click upon link and read it in full, suffice it to say birds love fiberglass.

Once condensation control blanket was torn apart – there was nothing left to prevent condensation from occurring below roof steel.

Moving forward, just glancing upon structure supporting hay loft, I would suspect a high degree of under design with only chance keeping it from meeting its demise.

All sorts of things are seen hanging from trusses. Amongst these are a block and tackle, which I suspect has been used to lift bales of hay into loft. Fortunately, individual small hay bales are relatively light, as I am pretty sure trusses were not designed to support added point load weights.

While not most effective structurally, trusses can be designed to be placed upon each side of a column – provided they are done correctly. Blocking should be placed between truss bottom chords, in order to prevent weak axis bending. A bare minimum would be every ten feet.

I see no web bracing, making this highly suspect. Older barns tend to have had bracing needs neglected. Single trusses (when placed not nailed directly face-to-face into a pair, they are single) require a great deal of bracing.

Knee braces are what I see as biggest structural issue. Not only are knee braces ineffective (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/01/post-frame-construction-knee-braces/), but when installed improperly (as in photo) they are potentially throwing a load into roof truss bottom chords trusses were not designed to withstand.

Feel free to chip in with your observations.

 

This entry was posted in Insulation, Pole Barn Design, Pole Building Comparisons, Pole Barn Structure and tagged , , , , on by .

Is the Double Truss System Stable for the Midwest?

Is a Double Truss System Stable for the Midwest?

Reader SHARON in NORTH DAKOTA writes:

“Dear Pole Barn Guru,

I have attached some pictures of a 62×96 pole barn with 12ft sidewalls. I am rather ignorant about truss systems, but this one looks atypical to others I have seen. What type of truss system is this, and is it stable for the midwest? How are your truss systems different? 

Thank you for your time and knowledge.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

What you are looking at is a “double truss” system, where two roof trusses are physically joined side-by-side with the use of mechanical connectors (most often nails). It is absolutely stable for anywhere in the world. The most common Hansen Pole Building design utilizes the double truss system, typically with sidewall columns spaced at 10, 12 or even wider column spacing depending upon applied wind and snow loads as well as door locations. In the case of the photos you have sent, the roof purlins were placed over the tops of the trusses and staggered every other bay, this precludes the ability to pre-drill the roof steel, which would have minimized (or eliminated) the possibility of a roof leak caused by a misplaced screw. The Hansen Pole Buildings’ double truss system utilizes engineered steel connectors to attach the roof purlins to the sides of the roof truss top chords, as opposed to merely attempting to adequately nail through purlins to the tops of the trusses. The superior holding power of this connection resists wind uplift forces which could otherwise tear a roof off and send it swirling off like Dorothy’s home in The Wizard of Oz.

The most popular article I have written is on truss spacing – you can read it here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/06/pole-barn-truss-spacing/.

A caution – in the photos you have supplied, the trusses have knee braces, which could lead to a collapse if not engineered and accounted for within the truss design. More on knee braces here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/01/post-frame-construction-knee-braces/

The benefits of double truss systems vs. single truss systems include:

1- Fewer holes to dig for truss bearings – with columns every 12 feet, it reduces holes by 1/3rd.

2- Fewer columns to have to set.


3- Reduces total number of boards and trusses having to be handled and installed by as much as 50%.

4- Eliminates possibility of the one single weakest truss failing and pulling the balance of the roof down behind it.

5- Reduces the need for lateral bracing – a properly connected together double truss is twice as stiff in resisting buckling in the weak direction.

 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , , on by .

Missing Shear Walls

Shear in the ‘Hood

The saga of the neighbor’s pole building continues….

I have restrained myself about as long as I can. Time for me to hack away at what I have to consider to be some basic design flaws. Other than the previously discussed, ‘not designed for the correct wind exposure’.

26x40 Pole BarnThe building is 26 feet wide by 40 feet long and 14 foot eave height. It has two 10 foot wide by 12 foot tall overhead doors in the front endwall – spaced two feet from each corner and two feet between.

I’ve previously written about how post frame buildings resist lateral wind forces by utilizing the strength of the skin: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/12/lateral-wind-loads/.

Obviously large door openings are going to pose challenges in the dimensional stability of the end of our neighbor’s building. However some good structural design and the use of appropriate shear walls can take care of these issues: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/06/shear-walls/

Assuming the unrealistic Exposure B wind speed which has been used in previous posts about this building (I am betting it’s at least wind exposure C, if not D) – each endwall needs to resist 2368.99 pounds of shear force. In the actual testing of steel panels over pole building frames to determine shear values, we came up with 160 pounds per foot when steel is properly applied to endwalls. (Interesting reading on steel shear strength testing: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/08/this-is-a-test-steel-strength/).

Using this test proven value would require nearly 15 feet of endwall (measured across the base of the building at the end) sided with steel to carry the imposed loads!

There is a solution, which did not happen to be incorporated into this building – reinforcing the endwall of the building with structural wood panels (oriented strand board or plywood), aka “shear walls”.

So what else could be done in order to keep this building standing?

Pole buildings can be structurally designed either as “propped cantilevers” – where the diaphragms created by the roofing and siding transfer shear loads from the roof to the ground, or as cantilevers – where the posts do all of the work. The second choice results in the application of a force FOUR TIMES GREATER than when diaphragm design is used.

Pole Barn Knee BracesSince this building does not have the ability to adequately transfer the shear loads to the ground, the cantilever design could be an option, although the columns as specified are woefully inadequate to carry loads of this magnitude.

Builder Leroy, in an attempt to mitigate the potential problem, installed knee braces from the columns to the trusses. I shudder to even think about the new problems which have now been created with trusses which are not designed to withstand the wind load forces now being thrown into them! More reading on the ineffectiveness of knee braces can be found at: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/01/post-frame-construction-knee-braces/.

The structural future of this building is bleak, to say the best. In the event it blows down in our direction – we have excellent insurance coverage, and we hope our neighbor has the same.

Moral of the story – if your neighbor has a non-engineered pole building, (or an engineered one which is questionably constructed) call your insurance agent to make sure you are well covered for flying buildings (or flying building pieces) and don’t allow your policy to lapse.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Structure, Steel Roofing & Siding, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , on by .

Changing Pole Building Plans

You Want To Add What to Your Building?

For the most part, adding random extra framing members to a new pole building kit package is not a big deal. There is at least one crucial exception – which could result in a catastrophic collapse if included.

We go to great extremes to supply original pole building plans for every client which match exactly what is to be built. Every member and connection has been checked and confirmed for its ability to carry the appropriate wind, snow and seismic loads which are to be imposed upon the structure.

To get an idea of what is encompassed by the pole building plans, read more at: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2011/10/pole_building_plans/

Our Construction Guide has some pretty straightforward advice in it, including this statement in bold AND red:

“Any deviation from building plans places responsibility for the building’s structural integrity squarely upon you.”

Am thinking if I was a client and read this, I’d make sure to do it as indicated.

It further carries on to add, “A professional has designed your Hansen Building. Rely upon their experience”. As well as, “The cost to purchase “additional” materials and/or engineering if building is not built according to pole building plans is your responsibility (or between you and your building contractor in the event one has been hired).”

We even give one last warning, on the following page – tagged with a big red STOP sign (can you tell we truly do not want people to make mistakes?):

“If anyone, including any building department plan checker, field inspector, other official, or a contractor, makes any changes or deviations from provided building plans our advice is to obtain a signed statement to the effect they have now become “designer of record”. In effect, they have assumed all liability for the building’s structural design. Again, any deviation from the building plans relieves Hansen Building, the building designer or engineer from all responsibility for project design.”

I teased you with the possibility of a failure in the first paragraph – in the photo with this article is a beautiful brand new roof only. There are a couple of add-ons which were not anticipated.

From the sidewall columns is what would be termed as a “Y” brace. The client liked the looks of them, and the way they are fastened would cause them to fall off the building long before any negative structural issues would occur (other than them falling off the building and perhaps damaging something or injuring someone).

Looking closely – the interior columns on the sidewalls have a “knee brace” attached to them. Knee braces are a no-no….and I mean a truly BIG no-no. Read more about them: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/01/post-frame-construction-knee-braces/

The goal is to always create structures which will last for generations – follow the pole building plans and chances are excellent they will!

P.S. We did nicely suggest to the client he should remove the knee braces.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design, Building Styles and Designs, Pole Barn Structure, Professional Engineer and tagged , , , on by .

Can I Purchase Just Pole Barn Plans?

Welcome to Ask the Pole Barn Guru – where you can ask questions about building topics, with answers posted on Mondays.  With many questions to answer, please be patient to watch for yours to come up on a future Monday or Saturday segment.  If you want a quick answer, please be sure to answer with a “reply-able” email address.

Email all questions to: PoleBarnGuru@HansenPoleBuildings.com

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am very interested in pursuing a Hansen Pole Building for my horse barn.  However, since I believe I’ll need to go through a permit process, I would like to buy the pole barn plans, get my permit cleared, then buy the building kit.

The reason I would like to do it this way is in case there are issues with getting the permit that force me to “rethink” my desired approach.

Is buying just the plan an option?

Thank you for your consideration. SERENE IN SEABECK

Dear Seabeck: The first thing to do is visit your Planning Department, they will give you the answers as to how large a building you can construct, and where.

Here is more information: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2013/01/planning-department-3/

Once you have talked with them, contact your Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer who can work with you to determine the best design solution.

Your Building Designer can further guide you through your Building Department requirements. With your confirmed Design Requirements and engineer sealed plans, we guarantee you will be able to obtain a structural Building Permit.

Many companies, such as ours, do not sell “just pole barn plans”.

Why? Many reasons.

1. We have streamlined our process for efficiency. This means by the time you get your plans, we are far into a ton of series of steps happening concurrently – and have done much of the “work”….which has a cost. People are willing to pay an architect several thousand dollars for house plans, but they are unwilling to pay an appropriate amount for the work involved to produce truly custom pole building plans.

2. You get the plans from us, but decide to purchase your materials “elsewhere” and then are disappointed because you paid a lot more than you thought it was going to cost.

3. Worst of all, you purchase materials that don’t match the pole barn plans from someone else and your building contractor does not build to our plans and blame us when the Building Department won’t sign off on your building.

Why do we know all of this? Been there. Done that. And we do guarantee if you do your homework and communicate clearly with your Planning Department and us, you WILL get a permit.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My contractor wants to put knee braces on the already constructed trusses due to shallow holes due to limestone. The holes are 18 to 20in across and 1 1/2 to 2ft deep. What’s your take? Thanks. LIMESTONE IN LOGANSPORT

DEAR LIMESTONE: Friends Don’t Let Friends Have Knee Braces – JUST SAY NO.

Here is some more reading on knee braces: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/01/post-frame-construction-knee-braces/

There are solutions based upon how far along construction is. If holes have been dug only – I’d be looking at renting whatever equipment would be needed to get the holes to the depth and diameter as specified on the engineered plans.

If further along in construction (columns concreted in) a Registered Design Professional (architect or engineer) should be consulted for a design solution.

Adequate column embedment is a serious issue, taking shortcuts can result in catastrophic issues.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , on by .

Dear Guru: Housewrap, Concrete Brackets & Wobbly Trusses

Welcome to Ask the Pole Barn Guru – where you can ask questions about building topics, with answers posted on Mondays.  With many questions to answer, please be patient to watch for yours to come up on a future Monday segment.  If you want a quick answer, please be sure to answer with a “reply-able” email address.

Email all questions to: PoleBarnGuru@HansenPoleBuildings.com

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Can I set my poles, or posts, on concrete rather than set in holes?  And, can I attach floor joists across the pole building to create a floor?  The planned width is 12-16′   SOMEWHERE IN SEDRO-WOOLLEY

DEAR SOMEWHERE: The answer to both of your questions is yes.

 For further reading on brackets for the columns please read: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/09/concrete-brackets-2/

 We design a fair number of buildings which have elevated wood floors, over “crawl spaces”. Please keep in mind, any beams or girders which are within 12 inches of exposed soil, or joists within 18 inches of exposed soil, must be appropriately pressure preservative treated to resist decay.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: The instruction book is very clear about how to install roofing insulation, but silent on the correct way to install the housewrap on the walls.  I’ve used housewrap on stickbuilt walls, over the sheathing and under the siding, but never with the wrap just floating out there in space flapping between the girts.  Any tips to share about how to do this right? QUESTIONING IN CONNECTICUT.

DEAR QUESTIONING: When installing housewrap over bare studs in stick frame, or wall girts in a post frame building, run the housewrap perpendicular to the framing. In the case of a pole building –run in tightly placed strips running up the wall from the pressure treated skirt board, to either the soffit support (with enclosed overhangs) or the eave girt (with open or no overhangs).

Don’t leave the housewrap exposed to any wind.  Similar to putting the insulation on the roof with immediately putting roofing over it – do the same thing with your housewrap. Only put housewrap on as far as you can immediately cover sections with steel. On a day with little wind, you may be able to put housewrap on an entire wall before covering with siding.  On a windy day, you may have to do 3’ sections at a time to keep it all “tight” and intact.

The housewrap manufacturers typically recommend fastening to the framing with plastic capped staples or plastic capped nails long enough to penetrate the stud every 32 inches(vertically and horizontally).

 Although you will rarely find this done in the real world – ALL housewrap seams are to be taped.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Regarding knee braces; most of the comments above appear related to sheathed structures. What about their usefulness on open pavillion pole barns? Have a lot of movement in one barn and am putting braces on poles to beams and to trusses to try to alleviate this. Comments or suggestions welcome. WOBBLY

DEAR WOBBLY: Unless the roof trusses have been designed to support the loads being induced into them from the knee braces, don’t do it….a high wind could cause a catastrophic failure. Usually excessive movement in pavilions is due to one or more of the following: Columns are undersized or column holes are not completely backfilled with concrete. If you can provide the dimensions of your building, as well as some digital photos, I may be able to make some recommendations which would improve your situation.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Do you also offer wooden pole barn designs? LONGINGLY IN LANGLEY

DEAR LONGINGLY: As all pole barns are wood framed, I will assume your question is in regards to buildings which would have wood siding. The answer is yes. Any type of siding which can be used on any other structural building frame can be used on a pole barn. Whether you are looking for sheet sidings, such as T1-11, boards or planks, any can be utilized.

 Keep in mind, wood sidings are not going to be maintenance free – they require frequent staining or painting, in order to keep from deteriorating.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: We have a customer with an existing Hansen pole barn with a metal roof.  We would like to install solar modules on the barn, but are not sure the structure can take the additional weight and/or the wind uplift from the modules.  Where can I go for more information?  We don’t have money in the project to hire a structural engineer, so if I could find some of the original structural calculations, that would be great.  SUNNY IN SANTA CRUZ

DEAR SUNNY: Although solar panels are relatively light weight, chances are the roof structure would not be designed to adequately support any extra load over maybe a pound per square foot. If you could provide for us the information on the original purchaser of the building, we could verify the actual capacity of the roof system. Give me a call and I’d be happy to research this for you.

 

This entry was posted in Constructing a Pole Building, Concrete, Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , , , on by .
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