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Retrofitting Insulation for a Milking Parlor

Retrofitting Insulation for a Milking Parlor

Reader CALEB in SLEEPY EYE writes:

“Hello! So many questions! We have a simple 20 by 30 pole shed we are looking to retrofit into a cow milking parlor on one half and a general purpose/milk equipment cleaning area on the other half. We’ll pour concrete, insulate, and then install steel on the entire interior. We’ll also be removing the current sliding doors, framing in those openings, and adding man doors/windows (I’m hoping that will be fine to frame in on the slab and won’t have frost heave issues?) Currently, the exterior is just metal on wood, no WRB, no soffit or gable vents. The rafters do not seem very substantial and about 8 feet apart, so we are hoping to have a local design build figure out how we can beef them up to support insulation and steel ceiling (unless that’s something you guys can do?). My main questions at this point are with the insulation. I realize this is the age old question, but my hours of research have still left questions. I am hoping to insulate without rigid or spray foam because of price and difficulty of future repairs with spray foam. With foam board, there’s no more drying to the exterior and I would prefer that since this will be a substantial amount of humidity produced in this environment during milking equipment cleanings. Without using foam, it seems I would have to remove steel and install WRB if I hope to have a good air seal, correct? Once there’s a WRB, can I then just use 2×6 walls with fiberglass or mineral wool batts, or insulation blankets? Then vapor barrier, and then steel? This seems to still allow drying to the exterior which I would think to be a good thing. On cold days, will moisture that does make its way into the wall cavity still condense on the WRB? Or does it go through the WRB and condense on the back of the steel? I ask this to try and figure out how much it matters if I do fiberglass or mineral wool batts. As for the ceiling, after adding gable vents, would I be fine with just blow in fiberglass on top of the new flat steel ceiling? I am not sure how to address the condensation on the current roof steel without pulling all that up and adding the reflective insulation you mention in other posts, or spray foaming. I suppose all of that above could be summed up in the questions, what would be the best way to insulate a bare bones Minnesota pole shed without foam? And, if you think foam would make more sense to add, what would be the best way?

Thank you.”

By the time you get done retrofitting this building, you could start from scratch and build a new building for less. And – it would be exactly as it should be, not sort of like.

Assuming you are dead set upon utilizing this building….please read on.

Before pouring concrete for your slab, excavate between columns and install minimum R-10 rigid insulation at least two feet down and two feet out around entire perimeter. This will assist in mitigation of potential frost heaves. Under slab should have same insulation from wall-to-wall with a minimum 10mil vapor barrier on top of insulation and beneath concrete.

Walls – remove wall steel and place a well-sealed omni-directional WRB between framing and siding. Add 2×6 girts bookshelf style between columns flush to inside of posts. These girts will both provide an insulation cavity and will also serve as framing to support your interior liner steel panels. Then place R-30 Rockwool batt insulation between wall girts. This wall assembly will dry to building exterior. Moisture passing through your wall, should pass through WRB and may condense on inside of wall steel, leading to it either evaporating or running down inside of wall steel and out through bottom of siding.

At a 20′ span, roof trusses do not have to look very substantial in order to be strong enough to carry a decent amount of load. With specific information on how those trusses are built, we may be able to run them on our truss design software to determine if they would be adequate to support a ceiling load. We would typically have wanted to have raised heel trusses, so full depth of insulation can run from wall-to-wall.

Roof is going to pose some challenges, as there is no provision to prevent condensation from appearing on underside of steel roofing. If it were my own, I would have two inches of closed cell spray foam applied directly to underside of roof steel. Add gable and ridge vents. Then blow in R-60 fiberglass above a steel liner panel ceiling.

You may find it necessary to mechanically dehumidify – there is just no way to guarantee you will not have issues with excess humidity, given how you intend to use building.

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Insulating and Sheeting Interior of a Pole Barn

Insulating and Sheeting Interior of a Pole Barn

STEVE in EDEN writes:

“We have four seasons with temps getting below freezing in the winter and up to 90 in the summer, with average humidity of 70% and 20%, respectively. I have a pole barn with metal skin. The ceiling or inside of roof is insulated with plastic coated insulation. The walls are not insulated. The 2×6 Girts were installed between the poles with their flat sides parallel to the floor. In other words, the 6 inch width of the board is horizontal or laid flat. I wish to insulate and sheet the interior of the barn. I anticipate heating the interior only when in use to about 50 degrees and may run a standing shop evaporative cooler or even AC in the summer during the hottest times to about 80 degrees. The structure is 32 x 50 x 14, has two insulated garage doors at one end, two man doors and two 4×2 windows. I’m on a budget. I plan to sheet the interior walls with 1/2 inch OSB. I have a few questions: 1. Should I use vapor barrier between insulation and OSB? Insulation contractor who lives down the street claims it’s unnecessary in our climate and given my use, but I wonder. I am going to paint the OSB. Perhaps that will act as a barrier? 2. The Girts are on about 32 inch horizontal centers. I plan to install the OSB board vertically, or rather on their ends, but am open to staking them horizontally. Any advice there?3. If I install vertically, should I frame in studs such that the vertical or long sides meet on a stud? I will run a base plate along the concrete floor, so the weight of the OSB sheeting will be supported on that plate. I’m just looking to cover the insulation. I’m not going to be hanging anything on the walls. I have metal, standalone shelves and cabinets for storage. I really appreciate your help here. I am DIY’er for sure. I have to do this stuff on my own.”

As roughly 3/4 of all heat loss is up, and you are on a budget, you may want to investigate adding a ceiling to underside of roof trusses first. Provided roof trusses are adequately designed to support a ceiling load, and adequate ventilation is provided for at eaves and ridge, this would allow fiberglass insulation to be blown in above ceiling finish.

Your building’s roof Metal Building Insulation provides very little resistance to heat loss, as fiberglass above vinyl facing is crushed down to nothing every time a roof purlin is crossed.

On to answers to your questions:

1) I recommend using Rockwool insulation (as it is unaffected by moisture) with an interior vapor barrier. Not having a Weather Resistant Barrier between wall framing and steel siding, you may experience some condensation on interior of siding.

This can usually be mitigated by mechanically dehumidifying when relative humidity inside building is high and exterior temperatures are low. 2) and

3) While 5/8″ Type X gypsum wallboard is less expensive and provides fire resistance, for either it or OSB I would run vertically. Usually blocking those vertical seams is unnecessary, however you could run 2×4 blocking between girts at seams, if desired.

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An Insulation Retrofit, Adding Soffit, and a Fan Pricing Question

This week the Pole Barn guru answers reader questions about an insulation retrofit for a 72×36 pole barn with no ridge or eave vents, if one can add soffit the an existing building with no overhangs, and if the Guru has any pricing knowledge for a fan and heater to hang from a ceiling.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, Thank you for all of your great content. I have a 72×36 pole barn that I want to insulate. I’ve attached some pictures of the interior so you can see what it looks like. The attic space doesn’t appear to have any ridge or eave vents. I’ve taken bits and pieces from everything I’ve read but I want to be sure before I move forward. I know spray foam is an option but for this size building, it’s quite expensive. My thoughts are to insulate the walls with rockwool with a vapor barrier on the warm side. No vapor barrier on the ceiling with blown in rockwool, and then vent the attic space through the side walls with both high and low vents. Would love your feedback. I live in Northern Utah. Thanks for your help! JARED in PLAIN CITY

DEAR JARED: Provided your roof trusses are designed to support a ceiling load you are spot on with your approach to insulating. For venting – remove ridge cap, cut our condensation control at peak of roof, replace ridge cap adding vented closure strips. For air intake, add gable vents in lower half of each endwall. You will need to add no less than 312 square inches of net free ventilating area in each endwall.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Is there any way to add a soffit to an existing pole building? Thanks. PETE in FREMONT

DEAR PETE: It would be extremely difficult to do it right from what you have. If it was my own and I was absolutely determined to have eave overhangs I would remove all of the roof steel and replace it with steel long enough to create an appropriate overhang (likely 18″). I would order it with an Integral Condensation Control factory applied, to avoid condensation challenges.

I would consult with a Registered Professional Engineer to evaluate if my column footings will be adequate to support loads on this now greater roof surface (not just dead weight, but also appropriate snow loads). This engineer could advise as to how to properly structurally add “tails” to trusses and confirm truss carriers (headers between columns) are properly sized, or if they need additional reinforcement.

Sidewall steel would be cut down and support for soffit added to columns. Besides new roof steel material investments include: ridge cap with vented closures, new rake trims, soffit, #12 x 1-1/2″ powder coated color matched diaphragm screws, fascia trim, soffit, J Channel below soffit at top of wall.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What is practical priced good ceiling fan for a post frame 36 x 60 work shop, I plan on installing two. What height is good for a Modine hotdawg hanging natural gas heater with building with 14 ft walls? SCOTT in WISCONSIN RAPIDS

DEAR SCOTT: Having no personal experience with either, I frankly would not want to venture a guess. You might want to browse through “Pole Barns and Buildings” group on Facebook as yours are frequently discussed topics. Here is a link https://www.facebook.com/groups/2337434209870475

This entry was posted in Rebuilding Structures, Uncategorized, Building Interior, Insulation, Budget, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Heating, Building Overhangs, Barndominium, Pole Barn Planning, Ventilation and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Shingles on Roof, Ventilation, Vapor Barrier, and Insulating Existing Barn

This week readers “ask the Guru” about reroofing a pole barn with shingles, ventilation or new roof, vapor barrier to insulate properly, and insulating an existing pole barn without spray foam.

Roof LouvreDEAR POLE BARN GURU: We have a pole barn it was purposely built to have an apartment upstairs; it originally was a stable below. It’s all living quarters now. We have had issues with the steel roof. We are switching to class 4 shingles. The building has no eaves as it has porches off both sides. We are working with a roofer. They are suggesting we use some ridged vent at the lower edge of the roof, by cutting a notch in the edge and installing it under the shingles and decking. That’s my understanding. Also, it will have a full ridge vent. The steel was applied on decking with tar paper under it. We have had leaking and condensation with it, as it is. Just wondering if you have any other ideas, or if the ridged vent at the lower edge of the roof will be a problem? It has 16″ deep trusses with blown in insulations above the sheet rock ceiling. Thanks for any input or ideas. JENNENE in RAPID CITY

DEAR JENNENE: In my humble opinion, shingles of any sort are a poor investment. This is why: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/10/ask-the-builder/

Installing steel roofing over “tar paper” was probably not a best design solution. A synthetic underlayment would work much better.

Call me a skeptic – I just do not believe you will have adequate air intake from vents as described. While gable end vents are not an ideal solution, they can at least be sized to afford adequate air flow. Here is what you should be looking at creating: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/03/adequate-eave-ridge-ventilation/

If you have attic condensation currently, it is due to one or both of – improper/inadequate ventilation and/or not having proper exhaust ventilation inside your home. You may very well need to mechanically dehumidify to resolve this issue. As your building’s original purpose was to be a stable below, chances are good there is not a proper vapor barrier under your slab on grade. If so, this is further compounding your moisture issues and you may want to look into sealing your floor.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I’m in the middle of designing my Post Frame shop. I’m planning a 48’x64’x16′. I’m in climate zone 4a. I’ve been researching vapor barrier, radiant barrier and house wrap. I’m getting mixed info on the internet for my zone. Do I use vapor barrier? Can I use perforated radiant barrier in vapor barriers place? Where do I put it? And do I install it on the bottom of my trusses for blown in insulation? Hopefully my questions make sense. Thanks for any help at all. Respectfully, JUSTIN in LONDON

DEAR JUSTIN: In most instances a reflective radiant barrier is a waste of your hard- earned dollars. They can be (when properly sealed) an excellent vapor barrier, however using a perforated product takes away even this as a possible benefit. Walls – from out to in…. Siding, Omnidirectional housewrap over bookshelf wall girts, fill entire cavity with Rockwool insulation batts, well-sealed clear poly vapor barrier, interior finish. Roof – Order raised heel trusses (at least an inch taller heel than depth of blown in fiberglass (not cellulose) insulation). Order roof steel with an Integral Condensation Control factory applied. Vent eaves and ridge in correct proportions. No ceiling vapor barrier.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have an existing pole barn on property that I would like to insulate. I would like to steer away from spray foam but am worried as there is no Tyvek or vapor barrier on external side. What are my best options to void off any moisture issues and create a well insulated wall. JAMES in LAKE VILLAGE

DEAR JAMES: I would remove siding a wall at a time, place an omnidirectional building wrap over framing, then reinstall siding. Fill insulation cavity with Rockwool batts and use a well-sealed clear poly vapor barrier before interior finish.

 

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How To Insulate My Barn

How To Insulate My Barn

Reader MIKE writes:

“I had a couple of questions about a 36×48 barn I am insulating. 1) I have vented soffits with overhang on all four sides and the ridge cap has a porous foam between the ridge cap and metal. Is this breathable and is this sufficient. 2) I am insulating the walls with R-19 and ceiling with R-38 and is it ok to seal the corners and other air leaks with spray foam and caulking. Thank you for your help sir.”

In order to achieve proper airflow through your attic space, you should block off vents in endwall overhangs. This can be done by using solid 2x blocking above end truss and between roof purlins. I can only assume your ridge cap foam will be adequate.

In order to determine sufficiency:

Provision of 1 square foot of NFVA for each 150 square feet of attic floor (1659 square inches of NFVA in your case). One important note – attic floor area is just what it sounds like – area – not volume. This is a minimum requirement and does not stipulate required ventilation openings provide intake (low), exhaust (high), or both.

Or,

• Provision of 1 square foot of NFVA for each 300 square feet of attic floor (830 square inches of NFVA in your case) if both or either of these following conditions are applicable:
• A Class 1 (≤ 0.1 Perm) or 2 (> 0.1 to ≤ 1.0 Perm) vapor retarder is installed on warm-in-winter side of ceiling when structure is located in climate zone 6, 7, or 8.
• At least 40% (332 square inches of NFVA), but not more than 50% (415 square inches) of NFVA is provided by vents located not more than 3 feet below highest point of roof. (This would be your ridge venting) It is extremely important to get these proportions correct, in order for air to flow properly from eave to ridge.
• Provision for a minimum 1 inch air space between roof sheathing (in your instance likely only steel roofing) and insulation in attic at vent location.

You do need a provision to control condensation under your roof steel. If none is present at least two inches of closed cell spray foam should be applied to underside of steel. Otherwise, expect drips.

Seal up any possible air leaks.

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Plans for a 4 Plex, Romex Wiring, and Foam Board Insulation

This Wednesday the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about plans to build a 4 plex, running romex wiring in a post frame structure, and the installation of foam board on walls and a better method for wall insulation.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello. I’m curious if you could help me with plans to build a 4 plex. Thank you. TIM in YAKIMA

DEAR TIM: Most certainly we can. Not only do we provide floor plans, your new building investment includes full multi-page 24” x 36” engineer sealed structural blueprints detailing the location and attachment of every piece (as well as suitable for obtaining Building Permits), the industry’s best, fully illustrated, step-by-step installation manual, and unlimited technical support from people who have actually built post frame buildings. Even better – it includes our industry leading Limited Lifetime Structural warranty!

Things Hansen Pole Buildings Does Better Than Any Other Post-Frame Building Provider

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I can picture running romex wiring around the outside of the building posts when using bookshelf girts but I’m not clear on how that would be allowed as the the surface of the romex is only a little over one inch from the outside of the girt. Doesn’t that put it at risk of penetration by a siding screw or nail? Seems like it would just be easier to drill the post. As always, thanks for your wealth of knowledge and patience with self builders! RUSS in TILGHMAN

 

DEAR RUSS: Siding is in place long before you will be running wires, so there should be no reason to have a siding fastener hit a wire. Think of a hole being drilled through as being an “open knot”. Lumber grading rules refer to these as being “Unsound or Loose Knots and Holes” due to any cause.

For #2 graded lumber holes may be no less than every two feet and up to 5/8” diameter in a 2” nominal face; 7/8” in a 3” nominal face; 1-1/4” for 4”; 1-1/2” for 6”; 2” for 8” and 2-12” for 10”.

For other (higher) grades holes may be no less than every three feet and up to ½” diameter in a 2” nominal face; ¾” in a 3” nominal face; 1” for 4”; 1-1/4” for 6” and 1-1/2” for 8” and wider.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: How do I install foam board insulation on the metal walls of my pole barn? DONALD in SOUTH WALES

DEAR DONALD: This would be way down on my list of ways to insulate building walls.

Why? Too difficult to get a 100% air seal.

Assuming you already own it – cut tight to fit between external girts, glue to steel siding, tape all seams to try to get an air seal. You will need to cover interior with inflammable materials as foam board cannot and should not be left exposed.

Me – I would use Rockwool batts with an interior vapor barrier

This entry was posted in Building Interior, Pole Barn Apartments, Insulation, Barndominium, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Ventilation and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Insulate a Post Frame Building, Ventilation, and Column Sizes

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about the most economical way to insulate a pole barn style building, advice on ventilation, and the best column size for a building in Michigan.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, I am looking at either building a pole barn style or hybrid Steel column, post and joist with 2×6 purlins and girts. If I were to place 1/2″ sheathing on the walls and roof, install 30 felt paper then my metal on the walls and roof, what would be the most economical way to insulate it. It will be my hobby shop not a living space. ROBERT in OCEAN PARK

DEAR ROBERT: All of these recommendations are based upon meeting energy code requirements for conditioned buildings. Washington State will be a stickler for these.

1/2″ sheathing and felt is probably not your best design solution (besides being expensive).

Roof – order roof steel with a factory applied Integral Condensation Control https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/09/integral-condensation-control-2/

Order trusses with raised heels (deep enough to not compress blown in attic fiberglass insulation) https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/07/raised-heel-trusses/

Order trusses designed to support weight of a ceiling and install one. Blow in R-60 fiberglass above ceiling. Vent eave and ridge in correct proportions https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2023/06/274512/

Walls: From out-to-in:

Steel siding; Weather Resistant Barrier (Housewrap); 2×8 bookshelf wall girts; R-30 unfaced Rockwool batts; 6mil clear plastic vapor barrier; Interior finish

Slab: If using radiant floor heat, R-10 under slab and at slab edge. Otherwise R-10 rigid boards down two feet, then out two feet.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have an 18×20 metal building (my house) that’s covered with spray foam insulation at 1.5″ on the walls and 2″ on the inside roof. The entire space will be conditioned. I am now reading that I may need to ventilate the space. I thought the purpose of the spray foam was to make it air-tight as a closed envelope system. So, can you explain what I need to know about venting? Also I have a large attic fan I am wanting to install in the wall. It has louvers on it to hopefully seal the air and water out. I plan to use it to blow hot air out when I come home instead of cooling while at work. Then turn on the AC. Also plan to use on days that’s it’s not terribly hot as a method of cooling the whole house like my grandparents did. I live in East Texas so I won’t be able to do this too often. Is this ok or should I scrap this idea? Can I expect the louvers to seal good enough? With this would I need a mechanical ventilation system? Thank you for your awesome help. I’ve been reading your advice for years. CINDY in TYLER

DEAR CINDY: Thank you for your kind words and for being a loyal reader. Your solve is for your HVAC vendor to design and install a system to remove excess humidity from your interior air, otherwise you can expect to have some nasty condensation issues in your home.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: What size posts should be used for 30′ x 40′ x 10 with 6/12 pitch in southern lower Michigan??? Storage/ garage / shop. STEVE in MARSHALL

DEAR STEVE: Looking at your most recent quote for a 30′ x 48′ truss bearing columns would be 6×6 solid sawn. We will be converting all of our roof supporting columns to glulams in a few months, then it would become 3ply 2×6 glulams.

 

 

 

 

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Wall Insulation for a Hybrid Building

Wall Insulation for a Hybrid Building

Reader MASON in HILLSBOROUGH writes:

“I read your blog often and I truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge you openly share. I am in the process of starting construction on a hybrid steel shop that will house a small apartment that the wife and I will move into once its finished. We will sell our current home and then build a smaller house adjacent to the shop. 50 X 80 with 24′ wide mezzanine on one end. My questions are centered around wall/roof construction as well as proper insulation. Roof: I plan to install a standing seam roof with ice/water shield over 5/8 plywood. As you are aware, with hybrid steel it is hard to ventilate the roof with this type of construction. This downfall didn’t outweigh some of the benefits so this is what I am stuck with. Would like to understand some insulation options. Note: I do have the building designed to handle the loading of a couple of cupula’s and have considered making these passive and active ventilation points. (Exhaust fans with some louvers that I have yet to get the details figured out on)Walls (2 options): (Note: I prefer not to plan or have to always be fully conditioning the shop to 72 degrees…..I plan to have that ability by mechanical means but I don’t want to consistently have to be conditioning that much space, therefore I think i prefer the building to be able to breath out to the perimeter. I realize this may be tricky between the roof type and wall type)Option 1: metal siding – would like some input on wall and insulation construction based on the above notes of conditioning. Option 2: Hardie board vertical board and batten walls. Same as above, would like your input. There will be components on the first floor and second floor that make up the apartment space. Our approach on insulation and wall construction may change within those enclosed spaces may vary as they will be conditioned separately from the open shop space. Hope you can help shed some light on this approach and again thank you for your time and knowledge. Thanks!”

Thank you very much for your kind words!

In Orange County, being Climate Zone 3A, I would most often recommend drying to inside, using closed cell spray foam to insulate underside of roof deck and applied directly to wall steel. This does entail having to mechanically dehumidify.

Given your desire to dry walls to exterior, here are my thoughts:

Have a well-sealed vapor barrier under your slab on grade – you want as little moisture as possible entering building.

Include eave overhangs of at least two feet – this is again about moisture. You want to push weather (water) away from base of building.

Install continuous gutters, draining at least 10 feet away from building foot print.

For wall construction – regardless of siding being used, place a drainable housewrap under siding (make sure it is omnidirectional, so you can install either vertically or horizontally). Use bookshelf wall girts to minimize deflection and create an insulation cavity. Unfaced Rockwool insulation to completely fill insulation cavity. Well-sealed interior vapor barrier.

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Will I Have Issues With Post Frame Closed Cell Spray Foam Insulation?

Will I Have Issues With Post Frame Closed Cell Spray Foam Insulation?

Reader HEATH in NACOGDOCHES writes:

“I am building a pole barn that I do not plan to heat or cool initially, but would like to insulate due to condensation issues and our hot humid climate. Have there been issues with closed cell spf in post frame buildings. My main concern would be if there ever was a screw to back out and cause a leak. Probably overthinking it, but just trying to make a decision on what makes most sense. I am also open to soffit vents and installing a ceiling and blowing in insulation.”

Screws do not “back out”. Watch a screw being driven in – it pulls the wood fibers up. Wood has an inherent “memory” and as those disturbed fibers return to their natural state, they want to pull screws in (creating even a tighter seal).

Screw leaks are caused by either poor installation, wrong placement (on high ribs rather than flats), or entirely wrong parts. Poor installation will show up right away – either in a good rain storm, or by checking weather tightness by running a water hose on roof. I would recommend second of these prior to any interior finishes.

 

Most of our industry uses #9 or #10 diameter screws and often only an inch long. We found, under even a small load, one inch screws will pull out of lumber – so use 1-1/2″ screws. Next issue is one of time. Eventually slots will form around shanks of #9 or #10 screws, due to cyclic loading from wind. One these slots get long enough, they extend past screw’s washers and you have a leak. We use on larger diameter screw shank diaphragm screws to eliminate this as a challenge. Many are also using screws with neoprene rubber gaskets. These are not UV resistant and will break down due to sunlight. When this occurs, you again have leaks. There is an easy solution – EPDM gaskets. Yes, they cost a bit more, however damage from a single leak outweighs any up-front costs.

If you opt for closed cell spray foam, you want to have it applied directly to inside of steel panels, with no other barrier between insulation and siding or roofing. You will need to mechanically dehumidify, as your building envelope will be air tight. Given your climate, this would be my personal choice.

An alternative would be to blow in insulation over a ceiling. You should then order raised heel trusses to attain full insulation depth from wall-to-wall. Vent eaves and ridge in correct proportions and order roof steel with an Integral Condensation Control factory applied, to avoid having drips in your dead attic space.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Planning, Ventilation, Powder Coated Screws, Pole Barn Heating, Insulation, Barndominium, Pole Barn Questions, Constructing a Pole Building and tagged , , , , on by .

How to Best Insulate an All-Steel Building

How to Best Insulate an All-Steel Building

I know lots and lots about post frame buildings, however when it comes to all steel buildings (PEMBs – Pre-Engineered Metal Buildings aka Red Iron) I go to an expert.

Today’s expert is John Lyle McInroe aka Mr Bee Happy, he has been in the building industry since 1988. From 1988 to 1996 he built pole Barn structures. In 1996 he built his first steel building and for eight years built both pole Barn and red iron structures. In 2004 he went into red iron full time and has been building red iron structures of all shapes and sizes ever since. If I was looking for a red iron building in John’s service area, with out question he would be my man.

The most effective way to seal your steel building would be to use spray foam. Since the steel sheeting is already screwed down, I would start with getting closure strips for your panels. You take the closure strips and cut the high rib part off the strips and stuff it in all the high ribs of your panels. This would need to be done at the bottom and top of your sidewall panels and on the bottom and top of your roof panels as well. You want to make sure that anywhere you see daylight is sealed up. I would also use silicone to seal these closure strips into place. Also, just for a little extra, I would also use a flashing tape on any spots that you see daylight that isn’t necessarily where high ribs are. Places like gable end walls where roof and wall come together and corners. Simply, just want to make sure its sealed as well as possible. Once everything is sealed, I would have a reputable spray foam company spray two inches of closed cell foam on all walls and roof and make sure all steel is covered with the closed cell foam. This would include all purlins girt and beams. At this point you have sealed the envelope of the building but have a low R value, roughly 14. So what we do is use an open cell foam on top of the closed cell. We do 5.5” in the roof with 3.5” in the walls. At this point you have an R value of over 33 in the roof and 26 in walls and you have sealed the envelope. Now when we use this method on our projects, we make sure our HVAC company knows how to put in proper HVAC system. Main thing is making sure the system has a fresh air intake system. These are the processes and procedures that we use on all of our projects.

 

This entry was posted in Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Planning, Ventilation, Pole Barn Heating, Barndominium, Uncategorized, Insulation, Pole Barn Design and tagged , , , , on by .

My New Barndominium

Reader RENE in MICHIGAN is one of a growing tide of Americans looking to build a barndominium. She writes:

“I would like to build a barn with living quarters but I do have unanswered questions!

My property is in Riverside WA 98849 and therefore the first question is whether you service this area?

I have done a lay-out of what I have in mind but with no prior experience, help would be appreciated to point out possible problems or suggestions for improvements.

Would a wood construction be preferred to metal?

Would a wood construction be more affordable than metal?

Would a wood construction be better insulated than metal?

Would my 70′ x 70′ building be more expensive than a smaller downstairs and upstairs building

I am in my senior years and still in very good health but there will be a day when using stairs may become a problem and that is why the square footage is so much. The living quarters are two bedrooms (guest bed 15’x20′, bath 15×10′, laundry 15’x10′)(main 20’x20′, bath 20’x10′,dressing room 20’x10′) 2 bathrooms and open plan Livingroom and kitchen (35’x40′) and would be 70′ x 40′ and the garage/storage/RV space 70′ x 30′

May have more questions later but would like to start off with the most obvious, for me. I have to sell property in MI before I can get going on this side. If you could correspond with me by email, for starters, I would appreciate it. 

Thanks, take care and stay safe!

“GodBless”


Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

About Hansen BuildingsThank you for reaching out to us. I also qualify for those senior discounts and fully understand stair issues. When we built our own shouse (shop/house) in Northeast South Dakota 15 years ago we went with two stories and my lovely bride insisted upon having an elevator (we actually now have two of them).

I know Riverside well. Back in my younger days I was a prolific post frame builder based in Spokane. There was one year where we erected over 200 post frame buildings just in Spokane County! Hansen Pole Buildings happens to not only service Riverside, we provide more post frame buildings in Washington than any other state!

In my humble opinion wood post frame is going to have numerous advantages to a PEMB (pre-engineered metal building). While building shell costs are probably similar, it ends there. It is going to be easier to construct without a need for heavy equipment. Our post frame buildings come fully engineered including engineered foundation plans (PEMBs require you to hire another engineer to design foundations). Concrete slabs for PEMBs require significant amounts of rebar, resulting in much greater foundation investments. To have a home inside a PEMB, most usually one has to build a framed home inside of a building shell – unlike post frame where you only have to do it once. Post frame buildings are easily super insulated, whereas PEMB steel frames are a great thermal transfer. My ultimate guide to post frame insulation is here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/11/post-frame-building-insulation/.

I have also written about one story or two: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/02/barndominium-one-story-or-two/

Here are a few plan tips to consider:

Direction of access (you do not want to have to drive around your house to access garage doors.)
Curb appeal – what will people see as they drive up?
Any views? You’ll want to access all windows with great views to look at.

North-south alignment. Place few or no windows on the north wall, lots on the south wall.
Have overhangs on the south wall great enough to shade windows from midday summer sun.

Please utilize links in this article to assist with determining needed spaces, sizes and how to get expertly crafted floor plans and elevation drawings: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/10/show-me-your-barndominium-plans-please/

This entry was posted in Professional Engineer, Pole Barn Homes, Post Frame Home, Insulation, Barndominium, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Building Comparisons, Shouse, Pole Barn Planning, Footings and tagged , , , , on by .

Horizontal Sheeting, Framing for Insulation, and Alternative Siding

Today the Pole Barn Guru answers questions about overlapping horizontal sheets of steel, the best plan for framing to insulate, and best way to install vinyl lap siding on a post frame building.

Horizontal Steel SidingDEAR POLE BARN GURU: When installing horizontal sheeting, does the top sheet always cover the bottom sheet when joined? GARY in EUFAULA

DEAR GARY: In order to prevent water infiltration, yes. Provided overlaps have sufficient overlap, gravity will pull water downward across this overlap.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am looking to have a pole barn put up and wanted your opinion on how to best construct the shell if I want to insulate it down the road. From some of the things I have read I should include some type of foam board under the roof sections and maybe tyvek under the metal walls? Please let me know your thoughts. ROBERT in TIPP CITY

DEAR ROBERT: You do not want to place foam board between roof steel and roof framing as this will create a potential ‘slip’ between steel and framing, reducing or eliminating your roof’s diaphragm strength and resistance to wind loads.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I want to put vinyl siding on my pole shed. Do I need to frame 16″ on center walls between poles? What do you recommend? Thanks. TRAVIS in ANDOVER

DEAR TRAVIS: I would recommend using roll formed steel siding.

If your building is not yet erected, contact your engineer who designed your plans to have him or her confirm this is adequate. Place 2×6 wall girts bookshelf style between columns, with outside of girt and outside of columns flush. Install 2×4 Standard & better with wide face to wind at 24 inches on center vertically between pressure preservative treated splash plank and eave strut – nailing 2×4 to each girt with two 10d common nails. Toe nail at top and bottom.

Install 7/16 inch OSB or ½ inch CDX plywood to 2×4 per engineer’s recommendations. Wrap with a Weather Resistant Barrier and install vinyl siding.

 

 

 

This entry was posted in Vinyl Siding, Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Roofing Materials, Pole Barn Structure, Pole Building Siding, Alternate Siding and tagged , , , on by .

Post Frame Homes Proliferate

Post Frame Homes Proliferate

Post frame homes have been a well-kept secret for decades. Well, not only is the bag the cat was in open, but the cat has also leaped out and is running rampantly!

Here at Hansen Pole Buildings, we have noticed a significant surge in requests for quotes, as well as general interest, in residential post frame construction. And, it isn’t just us who are noticing the trend.

Cindy Orschell is the executive director of the Franklin County (Indiana) Area Plan Commission and Building Department. When questioned about what is hot in building she reported, “The trend we are seeing a lot of are pole construction homes”.

There are many possible reasons for the increased interest, one of which is cost.  My brother wrote his thesis on the savings of post frame construction for Habitat for Humanity homes probably 30 years ago, so this is nothing new. It was seven years ago when I penned an article outlining the savings in foundation costs (which have only increased since): https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2011/10/buildings-why-not-stick-frame-construction/.

Virtually any stick frame building floor plan or elevation can be converted to a post frame building. For this reason, Hansen Pole Buildings does not offer choices for post frame homes on our website. See something you like? It can be done.

How much is it going to cost?

Hansen Pole Buildings GuesthouseThe structural system of a post-post frame home, its engineered plans and foundation are all going to prove to be less expensive than stick frame. Everything else is going to be pretty much the same – cabinets, fixtures and floor coverings do not suddenly become less expensive just because they were in a post frame building.

There is one place where you may end up spend a bit more up front than you might have with a stick built home – insulation and energy savings! Post frame buildings have fewer structural members which touch both interior and exterior surfaces, reducing the direct transfer of heat and cold. With deep wall cavities, more insulation can be added to the walls. Trusses with raised heels allow deeper insulation from wall-to-wall: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/07/raised-heel-trusses/.

Where is the extra upfront investment? Paying for more insulation – which results in savings over the life of your home!

You can do it yourself!

Provided you can and will read the assembly instructions, tens of thousands of dollars can be saved by doing the work yourself. Post frame construction is extremely friendly to those who have the desire and inclination to self build.

Ready to build? We’re here to assist: sales@hansenpolebuildings.com

This entry was posted in Insulation, Pole Barn Design, Pole Building Comparisons, Building Department, Pole Barn Planning, Budget, Pole Barn Homes and tagged , , , , on by .

When the Pole Building Insulation Problem is Larger Than Imagined

When the Pole Building Insulation Problem is Larger Than Imagined

From questions I have received from loyal readers over the past year, post frame (pole) building insulation is right there at the top of the list for priorities. Sadly, it seems the same concern is not often put forward by those who are designing, providing and constructing post frame buildings – leaving far too many new building owners in a world of hurt.

DISCLAIMER: This is NOT a Hansen Pole Building

Reader KEVIN in WEST CHESTER writes: “When installing my insulation do I stop just short of the vented soffit inside at the top of the wall?”

Well, this is an easy question to answer – the wall insulation needs to not cover the air intake provided from the eave vents, if the thought is for them to be used as a functional vent.

Simple, wasn’t it?

Now we can get into the challenges presented in the photo.

Unless the walls are going to be insulated with closed cell spray foam, there should be a well-sealed building wrap between the wall framing and the wall steel. This allows any moisture which would be trapped in the wall to be able to pass through to the outside world.

Now, onto the big challenge – insulating the roof.

If the idea is to have the vents in the low eave soffit be an air intake, then there needs to be a corresponding air exhaust at the high end of the shed. Along with this there needs to be the ability of unobstructed airflow from the low eave to the high side above the roof insulation. This happens to be a Building Code requirement, not to mention it is designed to prevent mold, mildew and other associated decay issues. As the roof purlins appear to be an impediment to airflow if the cavity is filled – the solution may end up being to have to use closed cell spray insulation under the roof sheathing and do away with the eave ventilation.

Moral of the story – consider insulation and ventilation needs early on in the project, in the planning stages, not after the building shell is already constructed.

This entry was posted in Insulation, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Building Overhangs, Pole Barn Planning, Ventilation and tagged , , , , on by .

Attic Insulation Guide

Pole Barn Guru BlogWelcome to Ask the Pole Barn Guru – where you can ask questions about building topics, with answers posted on Mondays.  With many questions to answer, please be patient to watch for yours to come up on a future Monday segment.  If you want a quick answer, please be sure to answer with a “reply-able” email address.

Email all questions to: PoleBarnGuru@HansenPoleBuildings.com

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am building a 24’x32′ pole barn type shop using 5 clerestory trusses in which I will install windows in the verticals for natural light. I want the roof shingled and insulated. Is there a way to frame in roof rafters between the trusses to carry the weight of the roof sheathing and to use batt insulation underneath? SCOTT IN ELLERSLIE

DEAR SCOTT: For sake of discussion, we will assume the trusses have been engineered to carry the weight of all of the materials you will be adding.

In order to use batt insulation as you propose, Code requires there to be at least a one inch air space between the top of the insulation (which must be unfaced) and the underside of the roof sheathing. This space must be vented at eaves and peak, and airflow must not be impeded.

Just off the top of my head (and knowing nothing about how your trusses are constructed), I’d probably look at placing a header at the eave and peak, which would carry 2×12 rafters placed every 24 inches and running the same direction as the trusses. Insulation batts up to 10-1/4 inches thick could then be placed between the rafters.

You should consult with the RDP (Registered Design Professional – architect or engineer) who designed your building, to confirm sizes and connections of members, as well as their adequacy to carry the imposed loads.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My name is Ben, and my husband and I plan to build a timber pole house in the mountains around Luray, VA. We are still in the planning stages, but are already working on the design stage of the house. I wanted to reach out and see if you offer the type of services we need, even though your website seems like you would be just perfect.

As a quick summary of our needs:

I am a 3d artist and am laying out the space in 3ds max to get an idea for room size, arrangement, and other proportions. However since I am not an architect, I need someone to go over the design, make it useable, point out any problem areas I am unaware of as a non-architect. Also being able to get all the materials cut and shipped to our building site is a huge plus.

Additionally, as we are still researching land, I would like input on what to look for based on our design, and then after land is procured, any adaptations needed for our plan to fit the space (the biggest thing I am worried about, is pile depth for the timber piles to pass code and be structurally sound). We plan on a 2 story building, so it’s likely the max timber height above ground would be around 35 feet for some of the timbers. We also plan to build on a mountain side, so the timber length would vary.

Is this the kind of service you can offer?

Thanks so much for your time,  BEN AND AGUST IN LURAY

DEAR BEN: We can supply columns up to 60′ in length, so you should not have any difficulties with what you have in mind – nor will needing various lengths be a challenge.

Our designs do not incorporate interior non-load bearing walls, as we have found room sizes tend to change greatly once the exterior shell is up and clients get a much better feel for what each room will do, as well as for orientation. Always try to work from the inside out – determine (at least close to) the area of the spaces you will need and then orient these spaces to be most functional for your lifestyle. Then create an envelope which fits around your spaces.

The ultimate location may (and should) play a great deal into the final design. Orientations should be such to take advantage of the most practical approaches to the site, as well as views and exterior living spaces (decks and patios).

Keep in mind – any pricing done now, is based upon where markets are at today. Lumber and steel are commodity items and prone to a great deal of variability which is beyond anyone’s control. Allow plenty of safety cushion in your budget, it is always a pleasant feeling to have more money left over, than having to scramble because things were planned too tight.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am interested in pricing for a pole barn/apartment.  I am selling my house and will be purchasing roughly 15 acres of land.  I would like a pole barn constructed on the land.  I intend on building my own home which will take some time.  I would like a two story pole barn, with the upstairs being the finished apartment with somewhere around 900 square feet so I can live on my property while my house is being built.  Is this something that you would be able to do?  Thanks for your time. JEFF IN CINCINNATI

DEAR JEFF: Thank you very much for your interest in a new Hansen Pole Building. We provide post frame (pole barn) building kit packages similar to what you have in mind on a regular basis. You will be contacted shortly by one of our Building Designers to get more detailed information as to your exact needs.

Mike the Pole Barn Guru

This entry was posted in Insulation, Pole Barn Questions and tagged , , , , on by .

TextraFINE® Post Frame Insulation

TextraFINE® Post Frame Insulation

It is nice to hear from those who have read and learned from the articles I have posted over the past nearly three years. Even more rewarding, is when Hansen Pole Buildings’ team members come up with products for me to investigate.

Just today Justine (the Hansen Pole Buildings ordering and delivery wizard) asked me if I was familiar with “Textra fine” insulation. She had stumbled upon it during a web search and was unfamiliar with it, having always used either fiberglass or cellulose products previously.

Putting on my aluminum pyramid-shaped research hat, I jumped upon my trusty stead Internet and went on a search.

Anco TextraFINE® Post Frame insulation has excellent mechanical, thermal and acoustical properties making it ideal for insulating post frame structures where wide rolls of un-faced insulation are required.

TextraFINE® Post Frame insulation is made from inorganic silica sand which is formed into long textile-type glass fibers which are bonded together in random orientation by a stable thermosetting binder. This process produces unusually strong, resilient insulation which will return to full thickness following compression.

Manufactured with 85% post-industrial recycled content, TextraFINE® Post Frame Insulation can be a contributor to LEED® credits.

Standard sizes are six inches thick by 48” or 93” in width.

Basically the product (in its 93” width) is designed to friction fit between columns spaced every 8’. The idea being with 6×6 or 3 ply 2×6 laminated columns, and wall girts placed flat on the exterior of the posts, the six inch thick insulation will not extend inside the columns.

Before the International Building Codes were adopted, this would not have been a challenge, however to be Code conforming under the now enacted deflection criteria for wall girts – it IS a problem.

To find out more about deflection in wall girts: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2012/03/girts/

The structural framing solution, most often places framing in conflict with the installation of these wide insulation rolls.

TextraFINE® is also available as a Condensation Control Blanket (CCB) in standard one and two inch thick rolls. The average (or above average) installer or DIYer might want to think twice about this method of trying to control condensation by reading: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/blog/2011/11/metal-building-insulation-in-pole-buildings-part-i/

My take on TextraFINE® insulation? It is very probably a great insulation product, however the product as designed to be applied, may not always provide the best or most practical design solution.  As more jurisdictions become savvy to the new code, it would behoove companies such as TextraFINE® to produce insulation in a size conducive to fitting between girts. Also having a vapor barrier would afford it more advantages.

This entry was posted in Insulation and tagged , , , on by .

Rigid Insulation Boards Part II: Foam Board

 Yesterday’s blog featured a discussion of the various foam board products with application for your new pole building.  Used correctly, they provide good thermal resistance. Applied incorrectly can create a huge structural problem with pole buildings, along with safety issues.

Protect all types of foam  insulation from direct sunlight. Over time, the sun’s ultraviolet rays can damage the insulation. For roofs, this is generally done by applying a coating such as tar, acrylic, silicone, or rubberized paint. You can also cover the foam with a rubber or plastic membrane, or a layer of asphalt and roofing felt. Make certain you are using compatible products. The solvents in some coatings dissolve certain plastics.

In cold weather, warm inside air containing water vapor can get past the wall finish and insulation, condensing inside the colder wall cavity. In hot, humid climates the same thing can happen, just in the reverse direction. Humid outdoor air in the summer can condense inside cool, air conditioned wall cavities. If enough of this happens and the water cannot escape, wood rot, mold, and other moisture-related problems can occur. For this reason, building codes often require installing a vapor diffuser retarder on the warmest side of the wall cavity.

Foam board insulation is commonly placed against the steel building siding, between the girts of exterior walls. To prevent air infiltration, place rigid insulation boards tightly together and seal the seams with tape or caulk. This practice may worry some in cold climates since the foam board may act as a second vapor diffusion retarder. Studies have shown, condensation rarely occurs in these areas unless something else is seriously wrong with the wall assembly (like massive uncontrolled air leakage into the walls from the building). If the assembly is constructed correctly, the inside surface of the foam board stays warm enough to keep water vapor in its gaseous state long enough for it to escape.

When insulating a foundation you need to consider, although insects don’t eat foam board, they can easily tunnel through it. Insect burrows reduce the R-value and structural integrity of the insulation. For these reasons, some manufacturers treat their foam products with an insecticide, usually a borate compound. Many building jurisdictions also mandate treating the earth around the building with insecticides. These jurisdictions may also want an inspection area several inches wide and all around the foundation of a house kept bare of insulation board.

A better solution for below-grade walls in need of insulation is to install the foam board over the interior of the basement walls rather than on the exterior, which is more common. Interior applications prevent ground-dwelling insects from finding the foam board at all, and they eliminate the need for the bare inspection area. Insulating interior walls, however, requires careful attention to moisture control.

Most jurisdictions also require installing a fire barrier over the interior foam board. While this adds extra cost, the thermal performance of this method is superior in most cases to the more common exterior foam board application. This equates with a dollar savings in energy which can repay many times over for the additional cost of an interior application. If converting a basement into a living space, there is almost no additional cost.

Foam insulation is relatively hard to ignite, but when it is ignited, it burns readily and emits a dense smoke containing many toxic gases. The combustion characteristics of foam insulation products vary with the combustion temperatures, chemical formulation, and available air.

Because of these characteristics, foams used for construction require a covering as a fire barrier. One half-inch thick gypsum wallboard is one of the most common fire barriers. Some building codes, however, do not require an additional fire barrier for certain metal-faced, laminated foam products. Always check with local building code/fire officials and insurers for specific information on what is permitted.

While rigid insulation boards may afford a relatively high R-value, if installed improperly they can provide less than desired insulating results, structural issues or pose a fire hazard. In many instances, other methods of climate control may be more cost effective.

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Structure, Steel Roofing & Siding and tagged , , , on by .
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