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Adding a Pool, Gambrel for Processing, and Square Footage

This week Mike the Pole Barn Guru discusses reader questions about the practicality of adding a pool to an existing pole barn, if the trusses in a gambrel might hold the load of a deer while processing, and what square footage might give the best “bang for the bunk?”

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am considering buying a house with an uninsulated pole barn. Would it make sense to add a pool and insulation to an existing structure. The floor is mostly asphalt and has sliding doors larger than a double garage door. The structure is approximately 40ft by 80ft and 20 ft high. Does this project make sense and how much might it cost to insulate the pole barn?
Thank you, CHRIS

DEAR CHRIS: I can’t see this as being a practical design solution. You would need to replace sliding doors with either an insulated overhead door or do away with large door entirely. Trying to climate control a space this large (as well as insulating to get there) will prove costly. Here are some other considerations https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/08/post-frame-indoor-swimming-pool-considerations/. Me- if I was going to have an indoor swimming pool, I would design a new building to best fit pool and its requirements.

 

Gambrel BarnDEAR POLE BARN GURU: Good morning, quick question for you, I am going to be building a 28x32x10 pole barn and looking to have a gambrel for hanging a deer from for processing. Probably not smart to attach it to the trusses, what would you recommend?
I will add I don’t need anything too heavy duty seeing it is for my own personal use and not commercial grade. CRAIG in CHAGRIN FALLS

DEAR CRAIG: An adult buck will top out at roughly 160 pounds. Chances are ordering trusses rated for a 10 psf (pounds per square foot) bottom chord dead load will more than cover weight of any ceiling or attic bonus room floor as well as your deer. Happy hunting!

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello sir, quick question. Is there a certain “depth” that has the best bang for bunk as far as square feet? For example, 40×100 vs 50×80 to achieve the same 4000 sq ft. or “cost shoots up dramatically after xx depth.” Thanks! MIKE in NEW PORT RICHEY

DEAR MIKE: As you get closer to perfectly square, your building becomes more efficient in materials use, as well as stronger against wind forces. Consider your two example choices – 40 x 100 has 280 lineal feet of walls 50 x 80 has 260. Besides siding, less exterior wall also means less insulation and less area for thermal heat loss/gain. For post frame your most cost efficient multiples are typically 12′ (e.g. 36′ x 108′ or 120′; 48′ x 84′). Ultimately we are talking about cents per square foot, not dollars – so make your building shell fit with how your rooms best layout inside, rather than trying to fit rooms into a preordained box.

 

 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Questions, Building Styles and Designs, Gambrel, Constructing a Pole Building, Pole Building How To Guides, Pole Barn Planning, Pole Barn Structure, Trusses, Rebuilding Structures, Budget, Insulation, Columns and tagged , , , , , , on by .

Basement Addition, Gambrel Modification, and a New Home

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about the addition of a basement to an existing pole barn, the possibility of modifying an existing gambrel style horse barn, and the connection of a house and garage.

Ask The Pole Barn GuruDEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am considering building a partial basement under my existing Pole Barn Building (agricultural). There is currently even no slab there. I spoke to different contractors and got very different answers related to the maximum size of the basement. I learnt already that I need to step far away from the existing walls for safe slope excavation, but would love to hear your opinion if I can start digging 1:1 starting just from the wall, or need to maintain some additional horizontal distance before sloping. The building is 44’x60′, posts embed is 5′, and I would love to have 25’x45′ basement there. The worry which the most reasonable contractor has is that when excavating 1:1 starting from the wall edge, it may be not enough soil left to keep posts in place. Your opinion would be greatly appreciated! Thank you, ADAM in ROCHESTER

DEAR ADAM: Rather than reliance upon any contractor, I would recommend you contact an expert. Google search for “Geotechnical Engineers near Rochester, MN”. There are several listed. They should be able to visit your building site and develop an approach to safely maximize your proposed partial basement space, without compromising structural integrity of your existing building, based upon actual soils at your site.  Any other approach is going to merely be a guess.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hi, I have a gambrel barn on the property I’m buying and am trying to figure out my options to configure it for my horses. I’m trying to find a structural engineer with some availability but in the meantime I wanted to ask for your opinion.It’s roughly 24′ x 32′. The side columns are spaced about 6′ and the ends have ~10′ door openings. I attempted to sketch it. I’d like to understand why the 4 center columns are clustered in the middle of the barn at 12′ from the ends and 6′ from the sides (the existing modular stalls are 12×12, not sure which came first). Is that normal spacing for a smaller building or gambrel style buildings? I’m guessing they are structural, but is there a chance they are just holding up the hay loft? Unfortunately I haven’t been up there yet to see what the trusses or rafters look like. Thanks for your insight! PAULA in WALDOBORO

DEAR PAULA: Taking an educated guess here – if columns are 6′ from each 32′ sidewall, then (without looking at your actual roof system) I would surmise they support not only loft, but also reach up to connect with pitch break of your gambrel roof. Even if they are only supporting building’s loft – they are then structural and should not be removed without review from a Registered Professional Engineer.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Planning to build a post frame house with an attached garage. Garage will sit perpendicular to the house, this giving me two different roof lines. My question is in where the endwall of the house and the sidewall of the garage meet. What does the endwall truss of the house attach to? I don’t believe the answer is having columns for the endwall and the sidewall. I assume they share a common column. Does the end truss run along the sidewall columns of the garage and I have to block beneath the truss for support? I have searched and searched for this online but have turned up empty handed. NUNTER in NASHVILLE

DEAR HUNTER: I will assume eave height of your garage is greater than eave height of house. Endwall truss of house will then be attached to face of sidewall columns of garage. In most instances, this truss can be designed with vertical webs to coincide with locations of columns other than at truss heels, allowing for adequate nailing to resist gravity loads. It may be necessary to have bearing blocks below truss heels, however all of these connections and required nails will be outlined on your engineer sealed structural building plans.

Should you be considering ordering a building from a provider other than Hansen Pole Buildings, make sure they are accounting for added weight of snow sliding off garage roof onto house, as well as unbalanced drift loads on each side of ridge lines (both of these are frequently overlooked by most providers).

 

 

 

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Structure, Gambrel, Trusses, Concrete, Post Frame Home, Footings, Barndominium, Building Interior, Shouse, Professional Engineer, Columns, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Homes, Constructing a Pole Building and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

How Much is the White Gambrel Barn?

How Much is the White Gambrel Barn?

Reader ALLISON in SALIDA writes:

“I’m wondering what it would cost to build the large white gambrel style barn that’s on your website.  Thanks!”


This building has been featured in places like covers of NFBA’s post frame building design manual and Rural Builder magazine. It is truly a monument to what fully engineered post frame buildings can do.

My lovely bride Judy and I happen to live in this building. We put it up 15 years ago for just under $400,000 (turnkey) and have since added features such as a full sized elevator, custom cabinets, granite countertops, hardwood flooring and tile. We recently had it reassessed for insurance and it came back with a replacement cost right at a million dollars for roughly 8000 finished square feet.

Now not every barndominium has all of our home’s features. All windows are triple-pane low-E gas filled. Primary heat is geothermal radiant in-floor. CHI overhead doors are highest R value available, with openers. Lower level begins with a 48′ x 60′ half court for basketball, with 16′ ceilings. It is clearspanned with floor trusses (yes, 48′) so there are no interior columns. On one side are two 18′ x 24′ offices with built in oak desks, drawers, cabinets. Front office has a vaulted ceiling (slopes from 17 to 11 feet). Opposite side has garage space for my 1950 Chevy pickup and motorcycle, a sauna, bathroom, kitchenette and utility room for hot water heater and water conditioner. There is a finished storage area above this of nearly 500 square feet. Besides our full sized elevator, opposite it is a tube elevator. Also on this level is a mechanical room for a big elevator and directly above it a huge storage closet.

Upstairs we have a 40′ x 60′ living area with my ideal dream kitchen (roughly 20′ x 25′) open to our great room. (Read more about this kitchen here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/05/not-your-average-kitchen-in-a-barndominium/) Master suite is in one corner 20′ x 32′ including an ADA bathroom, laundry and a roll in closet. Above is my wife’s sewing loft. (photos of loft in this article: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/03/a-mezzanine-for-your-barndominium/)  All of this level also has 16 foot ceilings. Besides elevators, there is a four foot width oak stairs to access this level from below. We also have a pantry on this floor, large enough for a refrigerator and an upright freezer, plus two foot deep shelves on two walls. There are gas fireplaces in both master suite and the great room.

This is what one does with a 16 foot tall great room wall:




If you ever get to Northeast South Dakota, drop us a note and we will give you a tour.

This entry was posted in Gambrel, About The Pole Barn Guru, Overhead Doors, Pole Barn Planning, Barndominium, Building Interior, Budget, Lofts, Pole Barn Homes and tagged , , , , , , , , on by .

Loading Gambrel Loft Space

Loading Gambrel Loft Space

Loyal reader ANDY in OXFORD writes:

“Mike,

First, thanks for providing so much useful information to all of us. I’ve read about 1,200 of your blog entries so far, and I’ve learned so much.

I have already priced a 30X36X11 Gambrel Roof building from Hansen for a woodworking shop. I’m committed to the Gambrel roof for aesthetics and just because I’ve always wanted one.

Am I dreaming?? I’d like to hang a steel H-beam from the roof trusses in the loft, extending about 4 feet outside the front wall – just like the old-time hay barns. I’d use it to hoist lumber into the loft for storage. I wouldn’t need to lift more than about 200 pounds per load. I can insure against overloading by using a very light-duty electric hoist. I’d inform your designers so they could design the trusses for the added load.

The thing I can’t get my head wrapped around is how to completely weatherproof such a setup so that rain doesn’t get in the opening for the rail and hoist. Do you have experience or ideas to share? Should I drop the whole idea and just plan to manhandle the lumber from the back of my pickup up into the loft? I’m vertically challenged, so it’s not as easy for me as for you.”


I am impressed you have done so much reading, and thank you for your kind words, they keep me writing more content!

I might be bursting your bubble here, however honesty is always the best policy.

In order to store hay, your loft area would need to be designed for a ‘light storage’ load. By Building Code this is 125 psf (pounds per square foot) – more than three times required load for residential applications. If your intent is to utilize clearspan trusses for this, it may very well prove to be prohibitively expensive. Less costly (although perhaps an interruption of main floor materials’ flow) would be to support your upper loft with strategically placed interior columns.  Almost universally, loft spaces tend to be where things go to die – as access and going up and down stairs becomes tiresome and inconvenient quite quickly.

I would instead encourage you to go with a larger footprint and store your lumber at ground level. You will find it to be less expensive, as well as more readily accessible. If you love gambrel looks, by all means keep it as your design.

Should you be dead set upon utilizing this second floor space for light storage – design with a widow’s peak to cover rail and hoist outside of the building and always keep outside. Materials can be loaded through a “bale” door unit, placed in the endwall, sealed against wind and rain (granted you will be limited to materials in length two times the distance from building face to most extreme point of rail).  In old time barns, being totally weather sealed was not usually high on priority lists – an ability to get materials easily loaded would have been way higher.

This entry was posted in Budget, Lofts, Gambrel, Pole Barn Questions, Building Department, Pole Barn Planning, Trusses and tagged , , , , , , , on by .

Tall Door in a Low Height Restriction

In an attempt to preserve “pristineness” of neighborhoods, Planning Departments can come up with some interesting requirements. Amongst these are often restrictions upon building heights. Sometimes restrictions for detached accessory buildings (garages or shops) are related to primary dwelling heights, sometimes they appear entirely arbitrary.

In the case of our “shouse” (shop/house) in South Dakota, there was a restriction on any building having a sidewall height of 10 feet. We solved this by erecting a gambrel with sidesheds, where sidewall steel lengths were just under 10 feet (although overall building height is 44 feet)!

Gambrel roof pole barn

*Our “shouse” with 10′ sidewalls

Reader BILL writes:

“Good morning,

I have a customer who wants a pole barn for his RV. We have issues with height restriction. He wants a 10 x 14′ high garage door but we have a max height restriction of 14′ to the mid span of the roof. My question to you is this: can we get a building that can have say 10′ high side walls, a 10′ wide x 14′ high garage door on the end and meet the height requirement? Not sure if you can design a truss to accommodate this. It can be a gable roof, gambrel roof, or any other roof that will work. The side walls can be any height as long as the roof height meets the requirements (I only said 10′ as a guide).

They would like 30′ width but that may be too wide for the coverage. I was thinking 24′. They want it 60′ deep.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Provided they can stand 8 interior columns, you could go with a gambrel formed by using a 12′ x 60′ x 16’6″ center portion where overhead door would be placed. With a 4/12 slope your peak height would be 18’0″. On each side of center, place a 6′ x 60′ single sloping shed from 16’6″ to 10’0″ (13/12 slope). This will put average roof height at 14′ and will give an exterior gambrel appearance. If they want to go 30′ wide, make sheds 9′ wide and change steep slope to 8.67/12.

While this appears to sound like it is a circumvention of restrictions, it does meet with the “Letter of the Law”.

Faced with what feels to be an overwhelming challenge of height restriction vs. wants and needs? Please call 1(866)200-9657 and speak to a Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer. Chances are good we can find options for you.

This entry was posted in Pole Building Doors, Gambrel, Overhead Doors, Pole Barn Questions, Pole Barn Design, Pole Barn Planning and tagged , , , on by .

Maximizing Post Frame Gambrel Space

Maximizing Post Frame Gambrel Usable Space With Trusses

Hansen Pole Buildings’ Designer Rachel and I recently had some discussions in regards to maximizing post frame gambrel truss useable space.  Most often gambrel roofs are supported by one piece clearspan gambrel trusses. Largest downside to this type of truss system is lack of bonus room width. Usually you can expect a room from 1/3 to ½ building width with smaller span trusses (generally 24-30 foot spans). Sort of like this:

My bride and I happen to live in a gambrel style barndominium (for more reading on barndominiums https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2016/04/the-rise-of-the-barndominium/). It is actually probably more appropriately a shouse (shop/house). We wanted just a lot more living space than what could be afforded by a bonus room in a gambrel truss.

This is what we did…..

Center width of our home is 48 feet. We clearspanned this using 48 foot long prefabricated wood floor trusses, placed 24 inches on center. These parallel chord trusses are close to four feet in depth. With our 16 foot high finished ceiling downstairs (it is a half-court basketball court), this made our second floor level 20 feet above grade. Ends of these trusses are supported by LVL (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2013/01/lvl/) beams notched into four ply 2×8 glu-laminated columns every 12 feet.

This got us across from column to column to support a floor, now we needed a roof system! We utilized trusses much like these, only much bigger:

Our trusses were so much larger, they had to be fabricated in two halves, split right down the center and field spliced to create a whole unit. We utilized the “Golden Ratio” (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/06/gambrel/) to create slopes and pitch break points. Our steep slope is 24/12 and our upper slope is 6/12/ On the inside, our slope is 12/12 and our flat ceiling ends up at 16 feet above floor!

We also ended up with a very, very tall building. Roof peak happens to be 44 feet above grade! Living at 20 feet above ground does afford some spectacular views – we look due south down Lake Traverse and can see the tops of tall structures in Browns Valley, our closest town six miles away.

In my next article, I will clue you in on things I would have done differently, so stay tuned!

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Homes, Gambrel, Pole Barn Design, Barndominium, About The Pole Barn Guru, Pole Buildings History, Trusses and tagged , , , , , , on by .

A Gambrel Pole Barn, Ceiling Heights, and RV Storage Solutions

Today the Pole barn Guru discusses questions about Gambrel buildings, a minimum ceiling height for a loft, and RV storage solutions.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Do you make plans for 18 x 20 gambrel roof pole barns? BEN in HOWELL

DEAR BEN: Hansen Pole Buildings can provide materials, assembly instructions and engineer sealed plans for virtually any dimension gambrel roofed pole barn – including your 18 x 20.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am building a pole barn house and want to put a bedroom in the loft. What height do I need to have to be able to stand up in the bedroom? BRENDA in SPRING VALLEY

DEAR BRENDA: A quandary exists in providing you an answer as IRC (International Residential Code) makes no provision for post frame (pole) buildings, so therefore IBC (International Building Code) should be code to be used for their correct design.

Under IBC rules minimum ceiling height in these buildings must be 7 feet 6 inches in hallways, common areas, and habitable rooms.

According to IRC, all habitable rooms must have a minimum ceiling height of seven feet. Habitable rooms include bedrooms, living spaces and kitchens but exclude bathrooms, hallways, utility spaces and closets. A ceiling with exposed beams spaced four feet or more apart can measure 6 feet 6 inches from floor to underside of beams. Bathrooms may have a minimum ceiling height of 6 feet 8 inches.

Minimum ceiling height in rooms with sloped ceilings (such as a finished attic space) of seven feet over 50 percent or more of room area. Room area calculation in this case will be calculated as total floor space with walls (or headroom) five feet or greater tall. Areas with ceilings lower than 5 feet are allowed but do not count toward official room area total (IRC rules also include minimum floor space for most habitable rooms).

RV Storage BuildingDEAR POLE BARN GURU: How much will it cost to build a roof only pole structure tall enough for RV while in use as shelter from elements but allowing as much light as possible.
Thanks MARY in SANDPOINT

DEAR MARY: There are numerous variables to be discussed between yourself and a Building Designer (please dial 866-200-9657 to speak with one) prior to being able to give an accurate price. Amongst these will be the height of your current (and any future) RV, as well as its length. Ultimately you may find it more cost affordable to cover one or more walls, as rarely is a roof only structure a most practical solution. For more reading regarding about this subject, please see: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2015/04/roof-only-pole-buildings/.

 

 

This entry was posted in RV Storage, Gambrel, Pole Barn Design, Lofts and tagged , , , on by .

Avoiding Pitch Breaks

Pitch Breaks – Steep to Flatter – The Why and How to Avoid Them

I can hear it in the background already, “You just taught us how to do them correctly, now you want us to avoid them?”

Yep…and here is why…

  • More costly (see also #2 below)
  • More labor (because there are more pieces to install)
  • Will leak if not done right
  • Great place for big snow and ice dam buildups
  • If the roof slope is under 3/12 pitch, the paint warranty on the roof steel is usually void
  • Might not be aesthetically pleasing

In most cases, pitch breaks usually occur when one side shed is added onto a main enclosed structure – either at time of original construction, or down the road when it is realized the building was just not big enough (they never are).

To begin with, there are alternatives to having a side shed at all which will generally be less expensive, easier to build and provide more usable space. As an example, considering a 30 foot wide building with a 10 foot wide side shed? Just go with a 40 foot width building!

When a side shed of the same slope is included at time of construction, it takes fewer purlins (the top edge of the shed steel of a pitch break has to be supported by an extra row of roof purlins) and, most importantly, the roof steel can run continuous from shed eave up to ridge. There is not a break in the roof plane which requires a piece of “flashing” and have two rows of closures installed in order to avoid leaks.

So, how can pitch breaks be avoided?

This takes stepping out of the land of dimensional challenges.

Consider the roof slope – a 4/12 slope (the most common) means the roof is going to decrease in height by four inches for every 12 inches of horizontal. This means a 12 foot wide side shed at a 4/12 slope will be four feet lower at the low edge than at the main building.

Don’t create an eave height lower than eight feet at the low eave of the shed. If necessary, make the enclosed portion of the building taller, so as to be able to maintain a straight roof plane. Good chance it is less expensive than creating a pitch break, and gives more cubic feet of interior space.

Before jumping into an investment in a building with a pitch break, explore the options – it may prove to be a pleasant surprise

This entry was posted in Pole Barn Design and tagged , , on by .
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