Tag Archives: post frame columns

NEW Hansen Pole Building Roof Supporting COLUMNS

NEW Hansen Pole Building Roof Supporting COLUMNS

Since Hansen Pole Buildings’ inception we have primarily provided solid-sawn timbers for roof supporting columns. Due to cost and availability challenges, we have only included true glu-laminated columns, when required by structural necessity or as a request from our clients.

Now solid-sawn columns have not come without their own set of challenges.

Pressure treatment: go visit your local big box store or lumber dealer and take a gander at treatment tags on their 6x6s. In order to be used structurally in ground, Building Codes require them to be UC-4B rated. In most instances, what is ‘on hand’ is only UC-4A and has 1/3rd less treatment chemical retention than what is mandated by Code. Usually UC-4B has to be special ordered (along with ‘special’ higher pricing) and results in lengthy delays. Cut off an end of a pressure treated 6×6 and not treatment chemicals do not penetrate completely. In an ideal dream world, where lumber does not check or split, this would not be an issue – however we do not live in such a world.

Strength: bending strength is a product of Sm (Section modulus – depth squared x width divided by six) multiplied by Fb (Fiberstress in bending). Sm for a 6×6 is 5.5 x 5.5 x 5.5 / 6 = 27.729. Fb for #2 SYP (Southern Pine) posts and timbers is 850, while #2 Hem-Fir (found in Western states) is 575 x 0.8 (this is Ci, incising factor read more here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/08/incising/) = 460.

27.729 x 850 = 23,570, while 27.729 x 460 = 12,755. More about this later in this article.

Weight: Pressure preservative treated timbers are not kiln dried after treatment. They have been thoroughly saturated with water borne chemicals. It is not unusual for a pressure treated 6×6 to weight 15 pounds per lineal foot (making a 20 foot long timber 300 pounds)!

Dimensional stability: as these timbers naturally dry, they tend to do things like warp, twist and split. None of these make for an ideal end use product.

What about glu-laminated columns?

Pressure treatment – each individual 2x member (or ply) is treated completely through. As SYP is being treated, wood does not have to be incised. All treatment meets UC-4B requirements and kiln drying after treatment makes each member capable of being FDN (Permanent Wood Foundation) rated.

Strength – most glu-laminated column producers have 3ply 2×6 columns rated at a Fb of 1900. Hansen Pole Buildings felt, if we were going to provide all glu-laminated roof supporting columns to our clients, we wanted to offer absolutely strongest columns, without question. We negotiated n exclusive contract with Richland Laminated Columns, LLC of Greenwich, Ohio, to produce our columns from ultra high-strength MSR (Machine Stress Rated read more here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/12/machine-graded-lumber/) lumber. This results in an end product with a Fb value of 3000 or 157% stronger in bending than what is typically found elsewhere!

Because finished dimensions are after planing, our 3 ply glu-lams have a Sm of 18.058. Take this value times 3000 = 54,173 or 229% greater in bending strength than a 6×6 #2 SYP and 424% greater than #2 Hem-Fir. Rather than having to use 6×8, 8×8, 6×10 or even 6×12 columns, these 3ply 2×6 columns will often replace them and STILL BE STRONGER!

Weight: a 3ply 2×6 glu-lam, having been dried to 15% or less in order to be able to be glued, weighs just over five pounds per lineal foot. This makes a 20 foot long column nearly 2/3rds less in weight than a 6×6!

Dimensional stability: with proper storage and handling, glu-lam columns remain straight without warp or twist.

But aren’t these glu-lams going to be EXPENSIVE?

No, we found by contracting to purchase a minimum of a quarter-million board feet of glu-lams, we were able to cut costs by as much as 75% or more (depending upon market) below what we had been paying for them previously. Our cost is now even far below what we had been paying for solid-sawn 6×6 columns! In fact, what we saved on columns alone, more than pays to have entire building packages shipped to most continental United States locations!

By investing in huge quantities, we now have inventory on hand to fulfill most building orders immediately and even custom dimensions in a matter of weeks.

Call 1.866.200.9657 TODAY to participate in “The Ultimate Post-Frame Building Experience”.

And, don’t forget to watch for our next article!

Wouldn’t Field Laminated Posts be Stronger and Possibly More Economical?

Wouldn’t Field Laminated Posts be Stronger and Possibly More Economical?

Reader CHRIS in AIRVILLE writes:

“Wouldn’t field laminated posts be stronger and possibly more economical? I have searched your previous blogs and found some information regarding this but they all seemed to refer to the laminated posts being ordered and pre-built. I would think that it would be, easier, stronger, and produce a better product if customers where shipped a load of 2×6 or 2×8 boards that they then laminated themselves. I say this based off, by your own articles, a laminated board is stronger than a sawn post. In addition, you would most likely be able to have a straighter post in that you could oppose the crowns as you laminate the post and the resultant nail-lam would/should be almost perfectly straight. I knew somebody years ago that did this by laminating treated boards to create posts that came out of the ground about 3-4 feet and then splicing non-treated posts on top after the bottom posts were set. This was considerably easier for setting the posts because he didn’t have 20 or so feet of post to wrestle above the hole while he was trying to set and plumb them. But I believe I saw a previous blog post where you mentioned that the splices may deplete the strength significantly so this may not be a great option. Does it come down to an engineer signing off on the strength of a field laminated post? I have done a lot of work in the USAR field and we utilize a manual from the US Army Corps of Engineers for the shoring or unstable buildings. In that manual they detail the use of field laminated posts utilizing defined nail patterns to attain shoring members that can support quite heavy loads. I would imagine that by utilizing a defined nail pattern, as welling as gluing the boards together, a customer could create a post that could be rated for the design loads of these buildings. And they may even be cheaper than sawn posts?”

Probably not stronger, maybe less expensive if you discount your time to free.

Here are your challenges…..

In order to properly glue it takes a product stronger than construction adhesives.

Resorcinol waterproof glue is a great (although expensive) product. It is a high performance, two component adhesive designed to provide strongest, most durable bonds in severe service applications. After curing, Resorcinol is unaffected by either salt or fresh water, and other typically corrosive aquatic conditions, as well as outdoor exposure and temperatures ranging from tropical to subzero.

Most often, at least in a form most people are familiar with, it is designed to laminate structural wood beams (glu-lams).

This glue is made from resorcinol, sometimes called resorcin, produced when a large amount of resin is softened and combined with potassium hydroxide.

Resorcinol in glue form is regarded as highly sturdy and dependable.

When using resorcinol glue, extra care should be taken to ensure workspace is properly ventilated. Those handling glue may find face masks necessary due to pungent odors (alcohol and formaldehyde).

Resorcinol glue will cure at room temperatures (70 to 95 degrees Fahrenheit) and will cure faster at higher temperatures. Poor bonds result from use below 70 degrees.

Ideal moisture content of wood being glued with Resorcinol is between 8% and 12%, and bonds on wood with moisture contents above 15% are usually inadequate. As “dry” lumber only has to have a moisture content of 19%, or less, further drying may be required, prior to being manufactured into glu-laminated columns.

Resorcinol glue has a minimum bond strength of 2800 psi (pounds per square inch), making it stronger than lumber it is being used to bond! This is why a finger-jointed piece of resorcinol glued lumber, when tested to failure, will have lumber break, before finger-joint.

Due to glue costs, need for a controlled temperature environment and strict lumber moisture control may cause manufacturers to produce lessor quality products, where end users and general public may not realize as being inferior.

In order for glue to properly bond, surfaces being glued must be planed and glue applied within 24 hours (otherwise wood surfaces will ‘self-heal’ resulting in a poor bond).

So, how about throwing out glue and just nailing?

Assuming three pieces being nailed together, unless one is using 4-1/2″ long nails, any shorter length nail results in more length of nail shanks being placed into center ply. When laboratory tested to failure, this center member breaks first every time.

Without glue, regardless of nailing, these three boards act as independent members and are each prone to their natural desires to warp, cup and twist. While performing relatively well in strong axis bending (loads applied to narrow faces of individual plies), they are very poor in weak axis bending and may require additional bracing, especially in areas of partially or fully open walls.

Strength – commercially manufactured glu-laminated columns usually have a Fb (fiberstress in bending) value of 1900 psi. When you go visit your local lumber dealer and buy a 2×6 #2 Southern Pine, it has an Fb of 1100 psi. Cr (repetitive member factor when three or more members are in contact) of 1.15 makes your resulting Fb of a combination 1265. You would need to laminate five lumber yard 2×6 in order to have bending strength of a 3 ply 2×6 glu-lam.

Dr. Frank Woeste’s “Nail Laminated Wall Columns from Dimensional Lumber” (see TRANSACTIONS of ASAE Volume 27, Number 4, pp. 1127-1130, 1984) compared strength of nail-laminated posts, with internal non-reinforced butt end splices.

In Woeste’s testing three-ply 2×6 #2 Dense SYP nail laminated posts, were compared in strength to 6×6 #2 SYP solid sawn columns. Moment resisting ability of a wood member is calculated from Fb X CD (duration of load = 1.6 for wind) X CM ( = 0.85 wet service factor for dimensional lumber) X Cr (repetitive member factor for 3 members joined together) X Sm. As testing was done on lumber not been subjected to moisture CM will be disregarded for comparisons.

For 2×6 #2 Dense SYP (based upon 1985 values) 1450 X 1.6 X 1.15 X 3 members X 7.5625 = 60,530 in-lbs. For 6×6 #2 SYP 850 X 1.6 X 27.73 = 37,712 in-lbs. Therefore, the 3 2×6 (no splices) would be 60% stronger than the solid sawn 6×6.

In this study, using butt spliced columns, 3 2×6 #2 Dense turned out to be only 64% as strong as a 6×6!

Using results of this scientific study, it would appear non-reinforced butt spliced columns should probably be used at a value of somewhere around 40% of non-spliced column strength.

In summation – looking for a column stronger than solid sawn? Then a true glu-laminated column is probably your best design solution.

Building Clientele, Design Plans for Canada, and Cabin Materials Questions

This week the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about building clientele as a contractor looking to build pole barns, if Hansen Buildings has any design plans for Prince Edward Island, CA, and a few questions about what materials are used in different Hansen Building components for a cabin.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: How to find more clientele to build pole barns for I am a framer and own my own company and I am looking forward to find more clientele. BRANDON in OKLAHOMA

DEAR BRANDON: Hansen Pole Buildings can help. We have clients looking for post frame building erectors all across the country. We connect you directly with the clients and do not markup your labor, or ask for any sort of kickback from you. If interested please reach out to Rachel@HansenPoleBuildings.com 1.866.200.9657. Thank you.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Do you have any design plans for Prince Edward Island, Canada? This is where I would be building but your form does not allow for a province. The building will be 24 wide x 36 long. Hope to hear from you soon. HEATEHR in MONTAGUE

DEAR HEATHER: We do not currently yet have Canadian Building Codes programmed into our system. Our Canadian friends can use our structural plans designed to U.S. Codes, if their jurisdiction will allow.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I am interested in a pole barn cabin. I am wondering about the actual frame, is it steel? Are the poles steel? I would like to price a building around 30 x 40 and 14 or 15 feet at the eave w a roof w a pitch of 5:12 or 6:12. Thank you, MARTA in CASCO

DEAR MARTA: Thank you for your interest in a new Hansen Pole Building. Post frame buildings are excellent for use as a cabin. With pressure preservative treated wood columns – designed for structural in ground use, and a wood framework, they are ideal for an average physically capable person to erect DIY.

Here is some extended reading: https://hansenpolebuildings.com/2022/01/why-your-new-barndominium-should-be-post-frame/

PBG Bonus Round 3– Column Material, Insurance, and Barn Doors

Today’s BONUS round of the PBG includes questions about column advice, liability insurance to harvest reclaimed wood, and parts for used pole barn doors.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: My barn will be 9’4″ to the eave, 40′ x 64′ long.

What column material should I use? My options are 4″x 6″ Pressure treated wood or finger-jointed glulams consisting of (3) 2 x 6 which are only treated on the bottom 6′. RANDY in NEW YORK

DEAR RANDY: This is why you should only build from a fully engineered set of plans. Your engineer of record will take into account things like – design wind speed, wind exposure, snow loads, soil bearing capacity, will there be a slab on grade or not, interior finished or not, roof dead loads (ceiling, roofing materials), slope of roof, column spacing, walls open, enclosed, partially enclosed, etc. to determine proper column size for your specific building. If you do not have engineered plans, go invest in them now.

I can tell you glulaminated columns are significantly stronger.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Planning a build with reclaimed lumber. Plenty of barns to reclaim. But owners want you to have insurance, which is a good plan for both parties. Having a hard time since we are not a business.

Any idea where we can get personal general liability insurance? DEE in MOUNT STERLING

DEAR DEE: You may need to form a business entity in order to get sufficient insurance to provide adequate coverage. Contact whomever you have home owner’s insurance with currently, as your agent should be able to either write a policy, or provide you with a referral to someone who can.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Hello, do you buy used steel pull barn doors? I have two, 7×10 that I’d like to sell. Please let me know.

Thank you! RIAN in ST. Paul

DEAR RIAN: Thank you for asking, however we use no used materials in our buildings. You might offer them for sale on Craigslist.

 

 

 

Isolating Pole Barn Poles from Concrete Slabs

Isolating Pole Barn Poles From Concrete Slabs

The fear factor – comes up again and again in construction. Today’s fear is a concrete slab being poured against the poles (columns) of an existing pole barn will cause the columns to decay.

“We have a 25 year old pole barn with 12 main 8×8 poles sunk 8 feet into the ground.

We’d like to pour a concrete slab under the entire building (as it is dirt now).

I was just going to pour the concrete right up to, and around, the poles, but some folks have me thinking that the concrete directly on the wood will create a lot of condensation and moisture and eventually rot/weaken the poles right at the floor.

I hear of people using styrofoam or expansion joint felt as a wrapping for their poles, but all of those discussions relate to avoiding cracks in the concrete from pole movement. My concern is for the poles themselves.

What is an appropriate barrier material to clad the bare poles in, and then pour concrete right up to, that will prevent moisture from collecting on the poles themselves?

Yes, we will be doing a vapor barrier under the concrete – but there will be 12 8×8 holes punched into that vapor barrier which could allow moisture up right into the part of the concrete pad that we don’t want it – the part touching the poles…

All comments and suggestions appreciated.”

Mike the Pole Barn Guru responds:

Properly pressure preservative treated wooden timbers are not only designed to be buried in the ground (with the proper level of pressure treatment being UC-4B), but also are required by Code in cases where wood is in contact with concrete.

So, how is it concrete would cause condensation against the pressure treated wood? Concrete retains a significant amount of interstitial moisture for many years.  This moisture routinely moves in and out of a vapor phase, depending on the temperature and relative humidity.  Placing anything which is reasonably “barrier like” to moisture (which wood is for the short term) can cause moisture to collect under the material in a liquid phase.  This is one reason the wood needs to be pressure treated.

Another reason for the wood to be pressure treated  is concrete is aggressively alkaline.  In the absence of pressure treating (usually acidic), the wood will dry out and its cell structure will be damaged from the exposure to the drying/alkaline condition.  

The reality is there is really no reason to isolate the pressure treated columns from the concrete slab.

Other than fear (False Expectations About Reality).

For more reading on longevity of pressure preservative treated lumber, please read: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2017/12/will-poles-rot-off/.

 

Redwood Columns in Pole Buildings

Redwood for Post Frame Building Columns

Just this week we had a client in the California Bay area interested in a roof only post frame structure. His caveat, he really wanted to have Redwood columns, as opposed to properly pressure preservative treated timbers.

The characteristics of redwood make it a popular choice for outdoor applications. Redwood’s color and grain are attractive even in an unfinished state, but more important is the wood’s pronounced resistance to decay and insects. Yet even though redwood is more resistant to decay, it will eventually succumb to rot.

So what sort of lifespan would a redwood column, embedded in the ground, have?

Luckily, Oregon State University’s College of Forestry has done the research for me!

In 1927, Professor T.J. Starker of the College of Forestry at Oregon State University (OSU) established a “post farm” to develop data on the natural durability of native woods and the effectiveness of various preservative treatments for species used as fence posts. Since the first posts were set on January 7. 1928, OSU has placed 2,662 posts in the farm. Three introduced and 25 native species in untreated condition and 8 Oregon species receiving various preservative treatments have been, or are being, tested.

The post farm is located on College of Forestry land in the Peavy Arboretum about 7 miles north of Corvallis, Oregon, on the West side of Highway 99W. Soil in the test area, located on a well-drained south slopeis Olympic silty-clay loam. The top 8 inches of soil, slightly acid (pH 5.4), have 1/2 inch or less of humus. Its organic matter and nitrogen content are 4.71 and 0.14 percent, respectively. In the past, the test site has been sprayed with herbicides to control brush.

The area typically has dry summers and rainy winters, a generally mild climate which favors growth of wood-destroying organisms throughout the year. During the past 92 years through 1984, annual precipitation averaged 42 inches, 81 percent of which fell from October through March when average monthly temperatures ranged from 39° to 53°F. Only 3 percent fell during July and August when temperatures averaged 66°F. Occasionally the temperature falls below freezing or rises above 85°F. Afternoon breezes from the Pacific Ocean cool the area almost daily during summer months.

Since 1949, various causes of deterioration of the posts at the test site have been identified. Decay-producing fungi or fungi in combination with termites do the most damage. Discarded wings of damp-wood termites have been found at bases of some posts, and entry holes have been detected at or below ground line. However, termites alone have been the primary cause of failure in only a few instances. Carpenter ants and wood-boring beetles also contribute to the deterioration.

It was found the average service life of square redwood posts, was 21 years. This would not meet with even the lowest Risk Category of the IBC (International Building Code), in which the design for snow, wind and seismic events is based upon a once in 25 year occurrence.

These excerpts from the 2012 IBC, specifically address the issue in Chapter 18:

1807.3 Embedded posts and poles. 
Designs to resist both axial and lateral loads employing posts or poles as columns embedded in earth or in concrete footings in earth shall be in accordance with Sections 1807.3.1 through 1807.3.3.

1807.3.1 Limitations. 
The design procedures outlined in this section are subject to the following limitations:

  1. The frictional resistance for structural walls and slabs on silts and clays shall be limited to one-half of the normal force imposed on the soil by the weight of the footing or slab.
  2. Posts embedded in earth shall not be used to provide lateral support for structural or nonstructural materials such as plaster, masonry or concrete unless bracing is provided that develops the limited deflection required.Wood poles shall be treated in accordance with AWPA U1 for sawn timber posts (Commodity Specification A, Use Category 4B) and for round timber posts (Commodity Specification B, Use Category 4B).

As far as strength characteristics, Redwood posts and timbers have a Fb (some discussions about Fb are available here: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/08/lumber-bending/) for #2 grade open grain of 750 psi (pounds per square inch), whereas Hem-Fir (the most commonly used western wood for post frame building pressure preservative treated timbers) is only 575 before downward adjustment because it must be incised (what is incising: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2014/08/incising/).

In the end, the design solution for using redwood for building columns would be to mount them into brackets (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/09/concrete-brackets-2/) which would prevent them from coming into contact with the ground.

So the ultimate answer is that yes, redwood columns can be used in post frame construction. However, they need to be mounted into brackets above ground rather than into holes in the ground as with most pole building construction, or they will rot.