Tag Archives: foam boards

Looking for Advice on Insulating My Pole Barn Walls

Looking for Advice on Insulating My Pole Barn Walls

MATTHEW in CENTRAL ILLINOIS writes:

“Hello! I am a member of the Facebook pole barns and buildings page and see your post with advice often. I honor your opinions. I am wondering if you can help me out. I have a 30×48 pole barn in central Illinois. Concrete floor.  I don’t believe there to be a moisture barrier under the concrete. I am wanting some advice on how to finish the inside. I’m thinking about doing bookshelf girts instead of interior girts attached to the poles. Should I use 2×4’s or 2×6’s? My thought is 2×6’s, but should I put them up against the exterior girts, or away from them to allow a space for insulation? There is no house wrap or vapor barrier on the inside of the metal. I would like to heat it as needed during the winter, but only when I’m working on a project. I wouldn’t have continuous heat. What insulation would be safest to use to prevent moisture along with being somewhat affordable? I do have a place about a half mile away that sells factory seconds of various foam boards. I have also heard good things about rock wool. Spray foam seems to be the most popular, but also can be more expensive. What are your suggestions taking in consideration of no current vapor barriers, location, and intermittent usage? “


Thank you for reaching out to me. Please message me any time with questions.

If unsure of whether there is a vapor barrier under your concrete slab, start by sealing it.

Here is how: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2019/02/how-to-properly-apply-post-frame-concrete-sealant/

This sealant came highly recommended: https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/11/siloxa-tek-8505-concrete-sealant/

2×4 #2 bookshelf girts should be stiff enough on your small span between columns to prevent undue deflection of interior finishes, as well as limiting thermal transfer. Hold them flush to the inside of existing wall columns.

I would look to fill your insulation cavity with Rockwool batts, with a well-sealed vapor barrier on the interior.

Foam Boards, Foundations, and Rat Walls

Today the Pole Barn Guru answers reader questions about adding kraft-backed insulation to rigid foam boards, if posts go in the ground or a foundation system, and if a pole building needs a “rat wall” poured.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have an existing pole barn, the front portion being 30×30 with 11′ walls. The walls have R tech faced rigid foam board between the girts with the reflective side facing the shop interior. The shop is only heated when I work out there by a vented propane unit heater. The walls will be finished off with steel liner panels. My question is can kraft faced fiberglass insulation be placed over top of the rigid foam board that is “foil faced” with the kraft paper backing facing the interior of the shed (back of liner panels)? JACKSON in COLEMAN

DEAR JACKSON: You should use unfaced batt insulation to avoid creating a situation where insulation is being trapped between two vapor barriers. It may prove necessary to dehumidify your shop space due to wall drying to interior, especially if your concrete slab on grade does not have a vapor barrier beneath it.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Do all your post go directly into the ground?  Do you have any type of foundation system? Thanks TONY

DEAR TONY: Our most common design solution utilizes properly pressure preservative treated columns (UC-4B rated) embedded in ground, with bottom of column hole below frost line (or 40″ below grade, whichever is greater). If potential decay of columns is a concern (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2020/09/pressure-treated-post-frame-building-poles-rot/) we can provide plastic sleeves to isolate columns from surrounding earth. We can also design using columns mounted to wet set brackets to either be set in piers or atop of a foundation wall or thickened edge slab. We have also had clients utilize concrete Permacolumns, however this is rarely a cost effective choice https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2018/04/perma-column-price-advantage/.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Building a barndominimum what or how do you get a foundation or rat wall with pole construction do you dig out between the poles and pour it? LLOYD in ONSTED


DEAR LLOYD: There is no structural reason to pour a “rat wall” between columns (https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/2012/06/rat-wall/).

My recommendation (and we can show this on your engineer sealed plans provided with your building) would be to use 19 gauge, 1/2″ x 1/2″ galvanized wire mesh around your building’s perimeter to a depth of three feet. This can be done be means of a trench and will be far less expensive than pouring a wall between columns.

 

 

 

 

A Garage Apartment, A Moisture Problem, and Insulating a Ceiling

Today’s Pole Barn Guru answers questions about building a garage apartment aka a “Shouse,” how to address a moisture problem, and the best way to add insulation to a ceiling.

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Can I design a garage apartment pole barn? JAY in HINTSVILLE

DEAR JAY: You may not have this ability however we have experts who can assist you. To develop a workable custom floor plan, designed specifically to meet your wants, needs and budget please use this link: http://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/post-frame-floor-plans/?fbclid=IwAR2ta5IFSxrltv5eAyBVmg-JUsoPfy9hbWtP86svOTPfG1q5pGmfhA7yd5Q

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: Live in the Midwest, have a 54 x 36 pole barn well insulated, walls, and ceilings. When it rains a lot I have a moisture problem, My building is approx. 1950 Sq. Ft. I found a dehumidifier that covers 3,000 sq. ft. I was thinking about putting one in the pole barn, it can run continuous if I put a hole in the side, for a drain, and let it drain out, just leave it running on its own as it needs to. Is this Ok to do to solve my issue? RON

DEAR RON: A dehumidifier may resolve your building’s symptoms, however not its problem. As this is a function of rain, I am led to believe you need to eliminate or reduce your moisture source. If your building does not have a vapor barrier under your concrete floor, seal top of floor. If you do not have rain gutters install them and ensure runoff is directed well away from building. Make sure ground outside of building is sloped away at least 5% for 10 or more feet.

 

DEAR POLE BARN GURU: I have a 32X46X15 pole barn with purlins attached to the outside of the 6×6 beams. The barn has soffits and a vented ridge cap and is set up for a ceiling. I have since decided to keep the rafters exposed and have questions about sealing up the soffits and ridge cap but leaving several small openings in the ridge cap to allow for humidity to escape.

How much should I leave open on the ridge cap and should I totally seal off the soffits? Will it be ok to leave the beans and rafters exposed, putting a vapor barrier in between the beams and the rafters?

What are your thoughts on 2in foam with no vapor barrier glued directly to the metal in between the purlins every 2feet? Then another 2in foam board with a vapor barrier placed on top of that screwed to purlins and can spray foam the edges and gaps? Thanks for all your help! MARK in VALPARAISO

DEAR MARK: My response is with a thought you are trying to climate control your building to some extent. Your proposal to use two inch-thick foam insulation board sounds to be highly labor intensive as well as being fraught with challenges in trying to achieve a complete air seal. Any air gaps would allow for warm moist air from within your building to not only condense against your building’s steel cladding, but also to remain trapped there, potentially being a cause of premature degradation of steel panels.

I would recommend you look towards closed cell spray foam as a solution for both insulation as well as condensation control. You will want to completely seal both eave and ridge then have at least a two inch thick layer of closed cell foam sprayed on interior face of roofing and siding. A mechanical dehumidifier should be used to control relative humidity with your building.

 

 

 

 

Rigid Insulation Boards

Foam boards—rigid insulation boards—can be used to insulate almost any part of your pole barn, from the roof down to the foundation. They provide good thermal resistance. Foam board insulation sheathing reduces heat conduction through structural elements, such as wood wall girts and roof purlins.

There are some who would feel the best application of these products is to the outside of wall girts and purlins, directly beneath the wall and roof steel. Doing so can create a huge structural problem with pole buildings.

A properly designed pole building utilizes the steel skin to create a diaphragm. The steel skin functions like the shell of a uni-body car or modern jet aircraft.

When rigid insulation boards are applied to the exterior framing, the screws must be ordered appropriately longer to attach the siding or roofing. When the pole building is then subjected to racking loads from wind or seismic forces, the shank of the screw between the steel skin and the underlying wood – which passes through the rigid insulation boards, may bend or break, resulting in a compromise of the building’s structural integrity.

The most common types of materials used in making foam board include foam building insulationpolystyrene, polyisocyanurate (also known as polyiso) and polyurethane.

Molded expanded polystyrene (MEPS) is a closed-cell material which can be molded into many everyday items (think coffee cups and shipping materials), or into large sheets of foam board insulation. MEPS foam board insulation is commonly known as beadboard.

To make beadboard, loose, unexpanded polystyrene beads containing liquid pentane are mixed with a blowing agent and poured into an enclosed container. The mixture is heated to expand the beads many times their original size. The beads are then injected into a mold. Under more heat and pressure, they expand to become foam blocks, which are shaped as needed.

The physical properties of MEPS foam board vary with the type of bead used. It’s manufactured at various densities, depending on the application. Beadboard for roofing materials has to be dense enough to walk on without damage; wall insulation foam boards are several times less dense than roof boards. R-values range from 3.8 to 4.4 per inch of thickness.

MEPS foam board is available with a variety of facings. Since spaces between the foam beads can absorb water, a vapor diffusion retarder is needed if water transmission through the insulation might become a problem. MEPS foam board also is often used as the insulation for structural insulated panels (SIPS) and insulating concrete forms (ICFs).

One of my personal pole buildings, at my home, utilizes rigid insulation boards, ICFs, on 2-1/2 walls of the lowest level.

Extruded expanded polystyrene (XEPS) is a closed-cell foam insulation similar to MEPS. To make it, the polystyrene pellets are mixed with various chemicals to liquefy them. A blowing agent is then injected into the mixture, forming gas bubbles. The foaming, thick liquid is then forced through a shaping die. When cooled, the panel is cut as required.

XEPS is more expensive than MEPS. Like MEPS, the R-value depends upon the density of the material and is generally about R-5 per inch. It’s also much more consistent in density and has a higher compressive strength than MEPS, making it better suited for use on roofs or for wall panels. Extruded polystyrene also has excellent resistance to moisture absorption.

Like MEPS, XEPS is available with a variety of facings and is also often used as the insulation for SIPs and ICFs.

Polyiso and polyurethane are very similar, closed-cell foam insulation materials. Because both materials offer high R-values {R 5.6 to R 8} per inch of thickness, a thinner foam board can be used to achieve the required thermal resistance. This can be an advantage in limited space applications.

Polyiso foam board insulation is available in a variety of compressive strengths. Compressive strength refers to the ability of a rigid foam board to resist deformation and maintain its shape when subjected to a force or load. Also, polyiso remains stable over a wide temperature range, making it good as roofing insulation. When used with a laminated aluminum foil facing, polyiso foam board provides an effective moisture or vapor barrier. These foam boards can also be used to make SIPs.

The maximum performance of rigid insulation boards depends heavily on proper installation. If you want to install it yourself, obtain and carefully follow instructions and safety precautions from the manufacturer. Also check local building and fire codes to see if it’s allowable to use foam board insulation in your new pole building. If so, are there any special requirements for using it?

Hold these thoughts until tomorrow – and I will delve into how to use foam board in foundations, using a fire barrier and a whole lot more more.  Stay tuned!